John Tobin is explaining the rites of passage that inform modern Gaelic football management.

"For me, the enjoyment is in the work. I love working at the coalface, I've been doing it all my life, coaching for 26 years and it is what I like. Unless you have someone that is exceptional, I think that it is very difficult to go straight to inter-county management. It's like everything else, it takes time to learn the trade.

"And if you learn the tricks of the trade too quickly, I think you might not learn the trade." As he speaks, Pat Holmes' smile goes broader. The younger manager knows he will be asked to respond.

"Of course I respect John's opinion," Tobin's adversary in Sunday's Bank of Ireland Connacht football final begins. "No doubt, if you coach the whole way up, you pick up a lot of things. The advantage of going straight from playing county football to management, as I did, is that you realise what is involved and you are near to the scene.

"But I suppose the disadvantage was that I had absolutely no coaching experience." John Tobin raises a hand, beaming broadly. "Can I qualify what I said," he requests and turns exaggeratedly to his companion.

"I did say 'unless you are exceptional'." Both men laugh freely. At this stage in the season, it is best to proceed with caution. Holmes and Tobin, two of the most genial and reflective characters in the sport today, have crossed paths often before.

Gaelic paths in the west are too well trodden for such survivors not to. Tobin's point was fair. Pat Holmes' record to date has been nothing short of exceptional, guiding Mayo to its first national title in almost three decades and all the time quietly decrying the rising hyperbole about his young team. Mayo management was something he fell into, almost by default.

"I suppose pressure initially came from my club to allow my name go forward and I said I would but that if better candidates came forward - and I was thinking particularly of Peter Ford As it transpired, Peter did not go forward. The reason I then went for it came after a lot of soul searching."

Tobin's arrival at this point was also far from inevitable and taking on Roscommon was something he deliberated upon. "In the last few years, I have had opportunities to manage at inter-county level and didn't take them. I felt that Roscommon was convenient in that it was close to me and also, I believed that there were some very good footballers, that it was a county with natural forwards."

Although both men head counties that are ravenous for more success, they each came into their respective posts in different circumstances. Holmes was transformed from affable defender to boss man and had to replace not so much a man as entire era, the Maughan years. It was, as he sees it, just a matter of applying logic.

"The structures were in place so it was just a matter of maintaining them. Crossmolina winning the club title was very important and winning the league title was nice but I don't think it had the same impact as Crossmolina's achievement.

"The lads then showed great character against Sligo because only about three players could say they did themselves justice. But they have shown before that no matter what happens they don't give up.

"But we are still young and it will take a lot of development before we a rechallenging for top honours. And I think people are more realistic about our chances now."

Tobin, though, was perceived as rising a team that was at the end of its tether. "There is a misconception that this is the same team that drew the 1998 final. There are only about six left from that game so it's not the same personnel.

I suppose my management would be completely different to the previous management. But basically, the boys have worked extremely hard.

"In September, when the better teams can afford not to train, we were doing two nights and a Saturday. When they weren't with me, they would work in groups on the odd nights off. I put it down to this."

And it has brought them to Sunday. They know the courting ritual of the week, happily - and honestly - talking up the merits of the other team. This may not be knockout but it is still a Connacht final that could go either way.