Sitting suspended in abortion comment chaos

There  was chaos in the Dáil yesterday in a heated row over comments made about abortion, both in a North West Radio interview and in the House, which was suspended in uproar.

Fine Gael TD Mrs Nora Owen (Dublin North) was suspended when she insisted that Fianna Fáil TD Mr Dick Roche (Wicklow) should withdraw remarks he made about his constituency colleague Ms Liz McManus of Labour, about abortion, remarks which could not be heard clearly from the gallery.

Mrs Owen stated: "He said she was pro-abortion," and insisted the Ceann Comhairle "must get him to withdraw that remark". The Ceann Comhairle did not hear the remark and said he could not rule on it.

Earlier, Fine Gael demanded clarification about claims by the Minister for the Marine, Mr Fahey, on North West Radio, that several attempts had been made by women to have abortions in the past 12 months, on the basis of being suicidal, and that that had to stop.

Mr Roche later said his precise words were that "if the Labour Party is for abortion, it should have the honesty to say it is for abortion".

Mr Pat Rabbitte (Lab, Dublin South-west) said that was a distortion. When Mr Roche said he was fairly precise in his words and that Mrs Owen called him a "thug", Mr Rabbitte said Mr Roche was a "slithering political lizard".

In an exchange with Ms McManus about the Labour Party's stance, the Taoiseach, Mr Ahern, said Labour voted to be pro-choice on the abortion issue and he disagreed with that.

The Taoiseach said of Labour: "You're a pro-abortion party; a pro-choice party."

Ms McManus said the Government was putting women's lives at risk and that it did not "believe or trust women".

Mr Ahern said Labour did not want a referendum but "you can't actually have a right to choose in this country without a constitutional referendum".

The row started when the Fine Gael leader, Mr Michael Noonan, claimed that Mr Fahey had said in an interview with North West Radio that the Government was proposing an abortion referendum because a number of women in the last few years had gone to their doctors indicating they were suicidal and looking for abortions and that the Government had to act to stop this traffic.

Mr Fahey said that was not true but Mr Noonan asked if this was the Government's position and did Mr Ahern stand over the "outrageous remarks" of one of his Ministers.

"A Minister of the Government with collective responsibility was saying that there was information to the effect that women with suicidal tendencies were seeking abortions and that therefore the Government had to act to stop this," said the Labour leader, Mr Ruairí Quinn.

Mr Ahern said he was not aware of any such case and he did not think anybody would be aware of such a case. He said that perhaps a deputy or a Minister had personal knowledge of such a case, "but I have no knowledge of such a case" and it was not an argument that had been put forward.

Mr Noonan called on the Taoiseach to "stop scaremongering" and that if he felt he would lose the referendum "let him take it like a man" and not twist the debate to the effect that "all the virtue lies within the Fianna Fáil benches and all the sinners are over here".

The Taoiseach said it was his intention to have a calm, cool debate and that "whatever the people decide, naturally I will accept it as I always do".

He personally thought that "if we go down the road of the right to choose with no real regard for the unborn that that's a mistake for Irish life".

He had a different view to Labour and "whether it's religious, ethical, moral or legal, it doesn't really matter. I don't actually think it's political. I don't think you're any worse person for your view and I hope you don't think any worse of me."

Mr Quinn said the party did not want another divisive referendum. Mr Rabbitte called for Mr Roche to withdraw the "disgraceful slur" on Ms McManus. He said there were many "decent people involved in politics, many people who considered themselves above politics. Deputy Dick Roche is beneath politics."

When the Ceann Comhairle, Mr Seamus Pattison, said he could not rule on something he had not heard, Mr Rabbitte said that "being able to hear should be a criterion" for Ceann Comhairle, Mr Pattison said the Chair could not hear when there was disarray.

Mrs Owen said the Ceann Comhairle had suspended the sitting in November to hear an audio tape when a slur was cast on her by Mr Thomas Gildea. As the Ceann Comhairle repeatedly insisted she resume her seat and then that she leave the House, Mrs Owen turned to Mr Roche and said "you stop your sneering up there. You're just a thug."

He suspended the session and when it resumed he said he had the tapes carefully listened to and "understand there is no trace of the alleged offending remark, which cannot be heard".

Mr Roche clarified his remarks and said that "my understanding of the Labour Party is that it is pro-choice, therefore, it is pro-abortion." Mr Rabbitte: "That is not what you said." Mr Roche: "My precise words where that if the Labour Party is for abortion, it should have the honesty to say it is for abortion," which Mr Rabbitte said was a "total distortion".

The Ceann Comhairle later told the House he would not suspend it again to listen to audio tapes of remarks he did not hear in the Dáil. "It would not be feasible and would be a recipe for parliamentary chaos."