Mr Michael Bailey made an allegation at the end of June 1997 that in the recent past he had a three-hour meeting with Mr Bertie Ahern and Mr Ray Burke, it was claimed by the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, Mr Dermot Ahern. Both the Taoiseach and Mr Burke denied the meeting had taken place. After the meeting with Mr Murphy, Mr Dermot Ahern had told the Taoiseach Mr Murphy had denied giving any money to Mr Ray Burke and relayed the claim about the three-hour meeting.
"He immediately indicated to me that no such meeting had taken place and expressed surprise that that would even have been said," the Minister said.
The Minister said the Cabinet was formed on Thursday, June 26th, 1997. Following his initial meeting with Mr Joseph Murphy jnr in London on June 24th 1997, Mr Murphy rang him in Dublin on Monday, June 30th, to say he wanted to see him the following day. Mr Murphy told him there had been developments.
The Minister said he should call him back the following morning. He had done it that way as he had wanted to check with the Taoiseach if it was all right to meet him. He had a short conversation with the Taoiseach and he had told him to go and let him know what went on.
At the second meeting, Mr Murphy told him about a phone call from Mr Bailey.
"He stated that in the phone call, the Sunday phone call, that there had been previously, in the recent past, he alleged there had been a three-hour meeting with Bailey and Burke and Bertie Ahern," the Minister said.
He (Minister) met Mr Murphy in Fitzers Restaurant in Dawson Street, Dublin, the next day, Tuesday, July 1st. Mr Murphy told him Mr Bailey had contacted him on the previous Sunday evening.
"Mr Bailey informed Mr Murphy that he, Bailey, had had a meeting, a three-hour meeting, with Bertie Ahern and Ray Burke during which all of this issue was discussed," the Minister said.
The Minister told the tribunal he expressed complete surprise Mr Burke would be at such a meeting. Mr Murphy had been basically trying to get across that Mr Bailey was extra-talkative and was "mouthing all over the city". Mr Murphy had told him he was not sure what to believe.
The Minister said Mr Murphy told him that during the phone call, Mr Bailey had suggested he contact Mr James Gogarty and offer him £100,000 and split the cost for him to go away. Mr Murphy had said this was off the wall and he wanted nothing to do with it.
The Minister said Mr Murphy told him that he had contacted his father and that neither he [father] nor himself had attended a meeting or had any meetings with Mr Burke.
Mr Ahern told the tribunal he had questioned Mr Murphy as to whether anything had gone out of the Irish companies; that perhaps Mr Gogarty could have taken money out without them knowing. Mr Murphy had categorically stated that it could not have happened.
"A lot of what Mr Murphy was saying was to try to illustrate how off-the-wall and how talkative and how prone to making wild statements Mr Bailey was. Mr Bailey was even saying he gave Mr Burke money on more than one occasion and money to two senior Fianna Fail politicians. According to Mr Bailey, he said to Murphy that the monies were in exchange for arranging planning permission," the Minister said.
The Minister said he made notes immediately after each meeting with Mr Murphy. ail contacted him and he indicated to Mr Martin Macken, the general secretary, that he had the notes.
The Taoiseach read them around the time of the Belfast Agreement. He told the Minister he had one problem with them and that was the issue of the supposed three-hour meeting. He stated that there was no such meeting and he had never had a meeting with Mr Bailey.
"He did recall Mr Bailey being part of a Chamber of Commerce delegation from Fingal. But he said that categorically, no meeting had taken place with Mr Bailey and Mr Burke in attendance," the Minister said.
Counsel for Mr Burke, Mr John Fox SC, told the tribunal that Mr Burke would say that no such meeting took place.