Seanad votes in favour of Bill to allow abortion referendum

The Seanad has voted by 35 to 10 in favour of the Bill to allow a referendum on abortion to take place.

In a late night vote on Tuesday on the Second Stage of the Thirty-Sixth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, seven Fianna Fáil Senators opposed the referendum going ahead, as did Independent Senators Ronan Mullen and Brian O Dómhnaill.

Fine Gael Senator John O’Mahony also rejected the legislation, the only member of his party to oppose allowing the referendum go ahead.

Fianna Fáil Senators Paul Daly, Aidan Davitt, Robbie Gallagher, Gerry Horkan, Terry Leydon, Jennifer Murnane O’Connor and Diarmuid Wilson opposed the legislation.

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The Seanad will on Wednesday complete the committee and remaining stages of the legislation. The Bill has already passed all stages in the Dáil.

After the five hour debate in the Upper House, Minister for Health Simon Harris said there would be an effective ban on late-term abortions, something that did not apply in Britain.

He called on opponents making the claim that Ireland would have a more liberal regime than in the UK to “be honest about that”.

Mr Harris added that “the greatest protection the unborn have is women. I trust mothers and I trust women and I trust Irish women.”

He said he did not believe in any way shape or form that what they were proposing was abortion on demand.

He said women who had been affected by crisis pregnancy and abortion “might live in your town, in your village. They might even live in your family.”

He told Senators they were not having a debate about abortion but about “whether you want to put in place a safe and legal provision or an unsafe or illegal basis”.

Seanad debate

During the debate Fianna Fáil Senator Ned O’Sullivan made appeal to Irish men, “Fir na hÉireann”.

Mr O’Sullivan who favours repeal, said he was slow to become immersed in the debate because “I felt it was primarily a matter for women”. He said “I now know it is my clear duty to get involved in support of women, the women we love and respect and trust.

“Do we think we need so coercive a measure as the Eighth Amendment to keep women straight, morally responsible. Or is there still ingrained in us a controlling instinct that says women are not sound and need to be continuously monitored.

“Men of Ireland stand up for your women. Talk out on the subject. Discuss with your colleagues in work and sport. Discuss it with your partners and families and having discussed and informed yourself come out and vote for women.”

But Independent Senator Rónán Mullen who opposes repeal said “if you take the issue of rape, the reality is the Eighth Amendment operates from implantation in this country”. He said the morning after pill “established very clearly that there is no issue about the legality of the morning after pill”.

He said, “I don’t deny for a minute that that is a hard case but people are not being asked to legalise abortion on rape grounds. They’re being asked to open the door completely and I don’t see how it makes sense for the Minister to say that abortion will remain a criminal offence in certain cases.”

Mr Mullen said the Eighth Amendment was also “designed to take this issue away from politicians because politicians simply can’t be trusted on this issue and we have seen that in the twisting and turning of Government figures where they say I’m in favour of repeal but I’m a bit worried about 12 weeks.”

He said “repeal takes away everything from the unborn child and gives the politicians complete power to legislate for his or her destruction”.

He also said the Eighth Amendment was designed to take this issue away from judges “which it almost completely did except for the X case”.

He added: “By the way, there have been some unjust deaths as a result of the 2013 legislation under suicide grounds that was never medically justifiable and I think about seven babies lost their lives in that context.”

‘A vote for uncertainty’

Fine Gael Senator James Reilly said however “there is no doubt that the current situation has a chilling effect on doctors”.

Dr Reilly said Mr Mullen talked of seven babies who lost their lives as a result of the 2013 Act. “But I put it to him what about the seven women who saved their lives perhaps as a consequence of that Bill.”

Independent Senator Lynn Ruane said Article 43.3.3, the Amendment passed in 1983, “was a gross interference by the State in the private lives and decisions of every woman in Ireland.

“It said to women that ‘your bodies are not the ones in control of your own lives, that you cannot be trusted with decisions around your own health and autonomy and instead a blunt constitutional instrument of less than 50 words shall be what dictates the lives of every women in Ireland’”.

Fianna Fáil Senator Terry Leydon reconfirmed his support for the Eighth Amendment which he said he supported in 1983. “To thine own self be true. In this regard I’m consistent in not changing my pro-life status in favour of a Bill which if passed and voted in a referendum will allow unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks of a viable child born into this world.”

Mr Leydon said he had never met anyone yet who said they were sorry they were ever born. “Children who are aborted will never see the light of day, will never see the beauty of the countryside or the beauty of the world. I believe a fundamental right is the right to life.”

Independent Senator Brian Ó Dómhnaill described abortion as an emotionally complex issue. He said if Article 43.3.3 was deleted it would mean “the people will have decided to completely withdraw constitutional protection from the unborn”.

“In this situation, the only constitutional factor at play will be the constitutional rights of the mother and clearly these will support a much more liberal abortion regime.”

He said that in the referendum “nobody knows precisely what they are voting for. Repeal alone is effectively a vote for uncertainty and I suggest the issue of life or death demands absolute clarity.”

‘A lonely, unsettled matter’

Mr Ó Dómhnaill said Ireland had reached a defining moment. “We are being asked to relinquish the human rights of a human being pre-born or unborn child. This is far removed from Ireland’s obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which Ireland ratified in 1992, which recognises a continuity of rights before and after birth.”

Fianna Fáil Senator Paul Daly said the middle ground was afraid to remove the Eighth Amendment irrespective of whether it was working or not “when they do not know what is coming down the line afterwards”.

He said the Minister was working “and struggling to get agreement on draft legislation”. He said there would be a plethora of amendments and “there is absolute nobody can tell me here tonight what will be the eventual legislation and if that is the situation and that uncertainty prevails I cannot vote to put that question to the people in the fear that if the Eighth Amendment is removed God only knows what will replace it.”

Fine Gael Senator Maura Hopkins said she would not support the proposal to allow for unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks although she did support access to options in certain circumstances.

“I do believe it is important that women receive the necessary care and support in very difficult circumstances but I also believe we have a responsibility to protect the rights of the unborn child.”

She said it was important that everyone one should have their voice heard on this issue “and as a young representative I am very aware that many people have not had the opportunity to express their view on the Eighth Amendment and this is why I will be supporting the Government’s decision to hold a referendum in order to allow the Irish people to have their say”.

Independent Senator Colette Kelleher said access to abortion care in Ireland remained a lonely, unsettled matter that needed public support to be settled once and for all.

Ms Kelleher said she was part of a group in the 1980s of ordinary middle of the road women offering the hand of friendship to women who had decided that abortion was the only option for them.

“The first woman to stay with my husband and I was a woman in her 40s expecting her seventh child. She travelled from Finglas in Dublin, she was a massgoer, a parishioner of Fr Michael Cleary as it so happened.”

“It was 1989 with high unemployment and her husband had been laid off. She had never been out of Ireland,” Ms Kelleher said.

She said the legislation needed to be passed to allow people “who are not extreme or hardline or harsh or unkind to remove the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution”.