Evidence suggested gardai were competent - witness

Barr Tribunal: There was no evidence of ill-discipline or a lack of training among gardaí during the siege of the Carthy home at Abbeylara, Co Longford, an expert witness testified yesterday.

Mr Alan Bailey, a security consultant and former superintendent with the British police, told the Barr tribunal that while he may have handled aspects of the siege differently, "the totality of the evidence suggested the gardaí were highly skilled and competent".

Mr Bailey was shown a photograph of a wall and pillar at the scene which had been pockmarked by shotgun fire from Mr John Carthy's gun. Behind the wall gardaí had located a negotiating post.

Mr Bailey said it would be reasonable to suggest that Mr Carthy had posed a significant threat to gardaí beyond the wall.

However, Mr Bailey said that had he been in charge of the situation he would not have had a negotiating post so close to Mr Carthy's "stronghold".

But he told Mr Justice Barr that the Garda officers who discharged their firearms - Mr Michael Jackson who then held the rank of sergeant and Mr Aidan McCabe who held the rank of detective garda - had demonstrated "not only skill but adherence to a deliberate process".

In response to questions from Mr John Rogers SC, for the gardaí, Mr Bailey said he had seen the records of several years' target practice and concluded that both gardaí were excellent marksmen, scoring consistently high levels. Their decision to fire was consistent with a deliberate process which involved considering if such force was necessary, and whether any other course of action was likely to be successful.

Mr Baily explained that out of a sample selection of 20 cases in the UK, 19 had ended within two hours and resulted in a suspect being shot. However, he said the record should be considered as 20 cases out of a total of 50,000 incidents across England and Wales and he did not believe the police had been reckless.

Mr Bailey referred to police guidelines which indicated the police officers were trained to consider discharging their weapons only when it was necessary and when any other action was unlikely to be successful.

He said he understood Garda training was similar and he believed the decision to shoot was part of a considered process.

The UK advice was that a shot in the central body mass or torso would achieve "immediate incapacitation", he explained.

The fact that Mr Carthy was shot first in the upper leg and secondly in the same place demonstrated a careful reasoning process. Mr Bailey said the decision to shoot at the leg a second time "was as valid" as the decision to shoot a first time.

Mr Bailey said the role of the armed officers was to make immediate but informed decisions. He added that the "reality is that if you get it wrong, you die".