Micheál Martin interview: ‘Mistakes get made in a pandemic’

There’s more of a bounce in Micheál Martin’s step these days. A year in the Taoiseach’s office next Sunday, Martin must have spent at least some of that time wondering why he had bothered to strive all those years, to develop all those plans, to make all those preparations – only to have his tenure dominated by a pandemic that put everything else on hold and dominated every hour of his day.

But, as the pandemic starts to recede, something like normal politics is reasserting itself. He now gets the chance – only for 18 months, mind – to head a Government that can do things other than manage Covid-19. A chance to leave his mark, and to set his party fair for the future. That’s the hope, anyway.

“The first year has been intense, it’s been back to back, dominated by the pandemic,” he says, in an interview in his office with The Irish Times. “I think Ireland has managed well relatively to other countries in relation to the pandemic overall, in terms of mortality, in terms of case numbers . . . ”

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“Mortality and illness, yeah. Protecting people’s lives. Overall I think Ireland has coped well with the pandemic and also in terms of the vaccination programme. It’s been very, very efficient, very effective, very successful.”

There was no modelling for what subsequently happened. That's just a fact. People didn't see it coming

What are Martin’s regrets about his first year? What were the mistakes? Was the Christmas reopening his greatest mistake?

“First of all, the broad advice at the time was to move to Level 3 [in the tiered reopening plan]. There was no modelling for what subsequently happened. That’s just a fact. People didn’t see it coming.”

But shouldn’t they have seen it coming? Shouldn’t the Government?

“Not necessarily,” replies the Taoiseach.

Case numbers were among the lowest in Europe then, he says, and also the adherence to the restrictions was beginning to fray anyway. Essentially, people were done with the lockdown no matter what the Government said.

Does he think he is unfairly blamed for the December-January surge?

“That’s for others to judge . . . You do learn lessons and those lessons were applied.”

There should be some sort of inquiry or evaluation of the State’s response to the pandemic, he adds. However, he believes it should be a process of finding lessons rather than an exercise in blame allocation.

“Now I don’t like the word inquiry . . . We should have an expert group, without any agendas, assessing how we managed the pandemic as a country, what steps do we need to take in a future pandemic,” he says.

“If you get into the blame thing too much in terms of officialdom and this, that and the other, all you do for the next pandemic is that you make people very cautious in their decision making – I’d have a concern about that.

“The last thing you need in a crisis is people watching for how will this look, or people covering themselves, writing notes and doing all this kind of stuff . . . You will make mistakes, mistakes get made in a pandemic and we do things maybe in a delayed way. Mask wearing could have been done earlier . . . but that’s natural in a pandemic.

“This exercise – it’s an evaluation. Use it as a platform to improve your health systems.”

The inquiry should not be done by an Oireachtas committee, he says, though he understands the health committee might want to be involved.

Fianna Fáil went into government because there are big challenges out there

Were there times in January and February when he feared the health service would be overrun?

“It was touch and go for a while. It was a difficult period. I was in daily contact with [HSE chief executive] Paul Reid to say, ‘what more can we do, what more do you need? Where are we today?’ ”

Was that the worst period of the last year?

“Yes, absolutely.”

Martin now sees housing as the key challenge for his administration

“Fianna Fáil went into government because there are big challenges out there . . . housing is the number one, as far as I’m concerned. It’s the social issue of our generation. I want to deal with housing as I would deal with Covid.”

He says foundations are being put in place to enable vastly more houses to be built that will provide a visible pathway for young people to buy their own homes, as well as social housing for those not in position to buy. But he is defensive when it is pointed out that there is little chance of many of those homes being available for people by the time he has reached two years in office next year.

“Some additional houses will be built . . . But people will see the pathway. It’s important that young people see a pathway. There are prospects for me that weren’t there last year. We’re taking too long to see houses built in this country. There are too many processes, objections, going back and . . . about the configuration of the scheme.”

He blames Sinn Féin for a lot of the objections to local developments, though they are hardly the only ones at fault. Politicians in all parties do it.

“The main Opposition party Sinn Féin has been going on and on about housing but they’ve opposed a hell of a lot of projects . . . There’s a cynicism at the heart of that which I find appalling, to be frank.

“We need to build more houses. We can’t have it both ways. You can’t come into the Dáil every day and say we have a crisis. What does the word crisis mean? What does the word emergency mean? Do we really have the luxury of saying ‘no’ to projects?”

He has launched a review of the planning system and says he will reform the way judicial review proceedings are often used just as a way of delaying and obstructing developments.

How is his relationship with Leo Varadkar?

“It’s a good relationship, yeah. On a personal level we get on well, and with Eamon [Ryan]. The three leaders, if there are issues, we work them out. And our advisers work well together which is an important factor in all of this.”

The Taoiseach’s role is slightly different to the other leaders, he says. He is responsible not just to his own party but to the Government as a whole. He has to find agreement, find a way forward.

However much Martin is goaded about the recent pronouncements of Varadkar, he doesn’t bite.

He accepts, though, the need for Government spending to be prioritised as the unlimited resources – financed by vastly increased borrowing – of the Covid period recede. He says the forthcoming summer economic statement will shed some light on the Government’s thinking in this regard.

Will he accept the 15 per cent tax rate on multinationals proposed by the G7?

Will it establish spending and borrowing limits that the Government will commit itself to?

There are “outer limits” he says. We will see what they are when the summer economic statement is published. The truth is there is a struggle going on behind the scenes in the Government over future budgetary policy, but he’s not giving away much about it here.

Will he accept the 15 per cent tax rate on multinationals proposed by the G7?

“I’m not. Ireland is in negotiation with other countries, we’re holding our cards close to our chest in terms of how this evolves, but we have to look after the country and the national interest as well, and that’s what we’re going to do.”

When it is suggested that he cannot stand against the world, he parries and talks about the need for some “tax competition” and “encouraging research”.

He also wants to build support for research in third level. He sees the need for a “step change” in third-level funding to promote research, upon which, he argues, the foundation for future economic success will be built. “The Cassells report can’t be dodged for too much longer,” he says. It sounds like the door is open for Minister for Higher Education Simon Harris.

Martin’s Northern policy has been one of the distinctive aspects of his period as Taoiseach so far, but has attracted some criticism in his own party for not being “green” enough – especially when Varadkar likes talking about a united Ireland.

“I’m very focussed on the here and now and making a real difference on the North-South agenda,” he says. He wants to do practical things, not talk loftily about unification some time in the future.

“I believe the Good Friday Agreement should be realised and it hasn’t been.”

In the North, he says, “people want politics to work . . . I think the biggest issue for ordinary people is the health service. That’s one of the issues we’ve suffered from here as well because of the pandemic, likewise in the North. People are just very annoyed that the health service needs improvement and advancement. Politics needs to align with the bread and butter issues that people want progress on.”