In 1993, a year or so after he left office, Charles Haughey was asked for an interview in connection with a book being written about P.J. Mara.
He was incredulous. A book on P.J.? What was there to say? And the impertinence of asking him for an interview on P.J.? Charles Haughey always underestimated P.J. Mara, never acknowledged what he did for him. P.J. humanised Haughey, his humour and levity softened Haughey's boorishness. There was/is more to P.J. Mara than Charles Haughey allowed. There is more to P.J. Mara than P.J. lets on.
There is a niceness and humanity about him - no more evident than nowadays in his solicitude for his wife, Breda, who is undergoing yet another bout of serious illness. There is the humour, of course, a humour often misunderstood or misrepresented.
Remember the una duce, una voce remark after Des O'Malley was expelled from Fianna Fáil in 1985? It was intended as much a send-up of Haughey as it was a put-down of Fianna Fáil dissidents. It was very funny, the hilarity of it emphasised by P.J. goose-stepping across the political correspondents' room at Leinster House; so much was made of that afterwards as though it had been intended seriously.
There is also an erudition and intelligence. His formal education hasn't amounted to much. Coláiste Mhuire after national school, and that was it, but he reads widely and is very sharp.
He has little time for what he considers "political correctness". He is impatient with arguments on fairness, he thinks it an affectation, especially when advanced by people relatively well off.
He has friends everywhere: in the media, the Law Library, in business, in politics, of course (and not just in Fianna Fáil), in sport. And then a host of high-rollers, including Dermot Desmond and Paul McGuinness.
He has become a high roller himself. He has made a fortune in financial public relations in the last decade since he and Haughey departed the national stage. He bought a huge Victorian house in Wellington Road and spent hundreds of thousands renovating it.
He was in desperate financial straits before then, having to borrow money from Dermot Desmond and others. It was a deeply unhappy period of his life, so much so he doesn't want to talk about it. It affected his confidence and probably because of that, he allowed Haughey to treat him often with contempt, hardly ever with respect.
He never adored Haughey as others did. He saw his flaws with more clarity than almost anyone else. It is a tribute to Haughey that in spite of that insight, P.J. thought and thinks so highly of him.
Because Haughey ran a presidential government, from 1987 to 1992, P.J. as government press secretary was at the centre of affairs and regarded even by many senior ministers as closer to power than they were. There are many in Fianna Fáil now who credit P.J.M with the election success, especially in converting 41.5 per cent of the first-preference votes into nearly 50 per cent of the seats.
P.J. Mara was born on March 16th, 1942, in Drumcondra. He has one sister. His father, originally from Co Meath, was a garda based in Store Street. His mother came from Oughterard, Co Galway. He ran Fianna Fáil's 1997 election campaign and the 2002 campaign.
VB What was the strategy of the campaign?
PJM To re-elect the outgoing Government. Work started shortly after the Peace Referendum Campaign in 1998. The first part of the exercise was the work done by the Constituencies Committee under Ray MacSharry's chairmanship.
That was to look at all the constituencies, to look at the candidates that were on offer, where there were retirements, where new candidates were needed and to work with the constituencies to get the best possible tickets in each of those constituencies.
Most of the candidates that ran were selected by the constituency conventions. There were only about two candidates added on. It was pretty much a seamless operation. There was a lot of negotiation, a lot of discussion, a lot of argument with the local organisations about the best way to go, the number of candidates, where they should be from, who they were, who they should be and so on. In the end it worked out OK.
VB Where did you go from there?
PJM Then the priority was getting (market) research in place. We did two major benchmark surveys to determine the issues that concerned people and we followed through on that in undertaking focus group research to tease out what concerned people about these issues and what they felt should be done. That also helped us get a sense of the priorities that were in people's minds.
VB What were the main issues emerging from that research?
PJM There were no surprises in that really, but it changed a bit over the last 12 months. The health service was always a major issue. Also would have been law and order but that focused on public order stuff.
It was different to the last election in 97 where the crime issues were important but they tended to be the drugs thing, drug barons, violent crime and burglaries. It had moved on to public order, public drunkenness, young people at risk at night coming home, random violence, disorder outside pubs, chip shops, nightclubs, that kind of thing. Then traffic and infrastructure and of course management of the economy and taxation
VB You said there was a change in the public mood, what was that?
PJM Yes, some months ago with the factory closures like Gateway, people's minds started to focus again on the economy. The public started to ask is the economic boom going to continue, will we have jobs, who's managing this, will this economic success last. Then the focus, I think, turned mainly to who was in charge of the economy and who they felt comfortable with, and this was very much to our advantage for there was a satisfaction with how the Government managed the economy and a trust that the Government could continue doing that.
VB Presumably, there was a policy dimension as well?
PJM Peter McDonagh in the Taoiseach's office would have started drawing together, with the individual Ministers, policy positions and then the manifesto itself. I think that the key underlying theme was the continuing success of the economy. This had to underpin every programme. It was very clear early on that people had a very good handle on this. Whilst they wanted a first world health service, I think people understood basically that you couldn't have that unless we had continuing economic success.
VB How much did you spend on all this?
PJM I don't know what we spent. All I know is that we spent considerably less in this campaign than we spent in any election prior to this because of the new limits.
VB What targets did you have in terms of the number of seats?
PJM The first issue we had was to ensure that in constituencies where sitting deputies were retiring - in Longford-Roscommon, Sligo-Leitrim, Tipperary North, Kerry North, Dublin South West - that we had a good succession strategy. Those constituencies got a lot of attention and support. Then there were the big five-seat constituencies where we got three out of five the last time - Cork North Central, Cork South Central and Meath, for instance - we had to ensure that the vote management strategy worked again for us. Then there were the seats we thought we could win. But we never thought we could get an overall majority. I thought we would get 79/80/81 and so it has turned out. We missed an overall majority by a short margin but you have to be very lucky to get that.
VB How crucial to the whole campaign was Bertie's personality?
PJM I think it was central. His personal ratings were running far ahead of the other party leaders and far ahead of our own party rating.
People liked him and trusted him and that ran across the whole spectrum, across the age brackets, the socio-economic brackets and the gender brackets, which is very unusual. He also had the ability to attract votes and preferences from other parties, including Fine Gael, which, in the past, was unthinkable for Fianna Fáil. It was because of Bertie's personality that we were able to win almost half the seats with just 41.5 per cent of the first-preference vote.
VB Were you annoyed with Michael McDowell's campaign?
PJM No, I wasn't. Michael McDowell's campaign was a clever campaign which was designed to elect Michael McDowell in Dublin South East.
VB Did you consider him as a candidate for Fianna Fáil at any stage?
PJM I don't think that that was ever a real option for Michael McDowell. It was something that was speculated about.
VB Was there any time since 1998, when you started all this, that you thought it was going to go wrong, that you weren't going to make it?
PJM No. I never doubted that we were ever going to lose this election.
VB Were you worried at any stage that your high profile as director of elections would prove an embarrassment to the party in that you were a reminder to people of Charles Haughey and all that went with him?
PJM Yes. But I wasn't running for an election. I mean all I was doing was managing an election campaign. I never gave a press conference. My name wasn't on a ballot paper.
VB Are you close to Bertie personally?
PJM I know Bertie for a long long time. I have learned one lesson through my life - that no one is ever really close to a Taoiseach or a Prime Minister or a President. I know him, I like him, I respect him, I get on well with him.
We had two successful campaigns, 1997 and 2002, and I'm very happy and very proud.
VB He sounds like Roy Keane, nobody close to him?
PJM I think Bertie has his own friends and he has his own social relationships, but I would say that I know him well, I like him, I think he likes me. We get on well, but you know . . .
VB Do you socialise with him?
PJM No. I mean I would go over the Drumcondra and we would have our usual pint in Fagans or John Kennedy's pub or whatever and we'd chat about what we had to chat about and we'd have a little chat about various things that were going on in our lives but no more than that.
VB Do you still see Charlie Haughey?
PJM Yeh, I do.
VB How is he?
PJM He's not bad, he's in good form. He hasn't had the best of health in recent times.
VB Do you still admire him?
PJM I do. Charlie Haughey was my friend then.
He was my friend before I ever worked for him and he is my friend afterwards and I'm not in the habit of abandoning my friends, no matter who they are.
VB Do you still admire him though?
PJM I do yes. I think that he, when time elapses and when the balance sheet is totted up, the pluses and minuses, when his legislative achievements are placed in the balance against other matters, I think that his record will stand the test of time.
VB Are you proud of your association with him?
PJM I think so. I think I had a job to do. I did my job to the best of my abilities and I thought the '87 government, the '89 government were particularly successful.
VB Do you still see Ray Burke?
PJM I haven't seen Ray Burke for some time.
VB Is he still a friend of yours?
PJM I certainly would regard him as a friend of mine.
We had fun times together and again, as I said, I am not in the habit of abandoning my friends.