As it happened: Catherine Martin tells Oireachtas committee ‘everything on the table’ for future funding of RTÉ

• In relation to future funding options for the broadcaster, Minister for Media Catherine Martin has said that “everything is on the table”, including exchequer funding potentially replacing the existing TV license system
• Ms Martin was before the Oireachtas committee to talk about plans for support and oversight of RTÉ
• In her opening statement to the media committee she said RTÉ will need to show clear evidence it will go further than cuts announced by Kevin Bakhurst before the Government will agree to €55 million in funds
• She confirmed a Government agency that assessed the figures in RTÉ's application for shorter-term funding has completed its work
• She has not provided any figures or timelines other than to say it is her intention to decide on long-term funding in the first half of 2024. “This Governent will grasp the nettle”, she has said.

We are now in the final lap of the meeting with members asking quick-fire questions. Alan Dillion of Fine Gael is back in. Earlier under questioning from Brendan Griffin and from Timmy Dooley, Ms Martin disclosed that she is meeting RTÉ chair Siún Ní Raghallaigh and RTÉ director general Kevin Bakhurst this week.

She also told Mr Dillon that the New Era report assessing RTÉ's interim funding requirement will be made available be then end of this year.

Mr Dillon says that the statement by the Board stating that overpayments of €345,000 were made to Ryan Tubridy was issued at a time when the Board was unsure of what was factual and was incorrect. He described it as a “huge error”.

Asked by Ms Dillon if it was appropriate, Ms Martin said that the Grant Thornton report on the payments had disclosed there had been an understatement by RTÉ of what had been paid to Mr Tubridy (that came to that amount).

Fine Gael TD Brendan Griffin has asked was Ms Martin unhappy about pay increases received by executives at a time when RTÉ's finances were in difficulty. He also asked if she had asked for the decision to be reversed.

Ms Martin said she “was not happy” and it was a time when I was seeking funding. However, she said the questions on the pay levels and reductions were not a matter for her as Minister. “I should not be getting into a (place) where I am micromanaging that. I expect the Board and Exectuvei to take steps to make RTÉ more cost-efficient,” she said.

Catherine Martin indicates that “everything on the table” in relation to reform of TV licence

The Minister for Media has indicated for the first time that the Government may revisit its decision to reject a recommendation from the Future of Media Commission that the TV licence be scrapped for public service and be replaced with direct Exchequer.

In reply to questions from Christopher O’Sullivan, a Fianna Fáil TD, she said that the technical working group looked at different options for a licence-type arrangement but its work was done in the context of licence collections not dropping off at the rate that they have.

She said the context was now quite different and indicated that the consideration now needed to be wider than the report of the technical working group, which looked at licence-type options only, and not direct financing from the Exchequer.

“I am now of the opinion that when it comes to (future funding) everything should be on the table. With the emergence of this crisis my mindset has changed. So it is just not what the Technical Working Group has (reported on), everything is on the table.”

So what have we learned so far?

The Minister has approached the questions from Committee members very cautiously. She has a few big decisions to make. The first is interim funding. The second is a long-term funding model.

She has given Media Committee few new details on the amounts involved or the timelines.

We know RTÉ put in a bid for interim funding of €34 million earlier this year. Since then the collapse in licence fee income has added €25 million of more to that short-term need.

NewEra, the Government agency that gives exert advice on finance and around strategic decisions has run the rule on the proposal for interim funding submitted by RTÉ.

Catherine Martin said in her opening statement that NewEra has reported to her. So she now knows if her advisers think the figures stack up.

However, she will not reveal what NewEra has said until she has had an opportunity to discuss its findings with Government colleagues. She has cleaved to that line at the committee.

She has also said that interim funding decisions will be contingent on what Director General Kevin Bakhurst’s strategic plan for the broadcaster which he is working on at present. We know it will not be completed by the time of the Budget next week. Ms Martin has said that a sum of €16 million in interim funding was agreed for RTÉ earlier this year, before the Tubridy controversy erupted. She has also said that RTÉ needs to be funded.

In an opening statement which she supplied to the Oireachtas Committee on Media in advance of a hearing on Wednesday Ms Martin has signalled that funding will not be granted without conditions.

“It will not simply be a question of increasing public funding for RTÉ. Already the Director General (Kevin Bakhurst) has announced a number of measures aimed at reducing costs this year. This is to be welcomed. However, I expect in developing its new strategic plan, a serious commitment to reducing costs and achieving value for money will need to be evident.”

The second part of the equation is a long-term funding model for RTÉ. An expert group reported to her earlier this year on options for reforming the TV licence system. She had hoped to make a decision on a funding model before the Summer recess but the Tubridy controversy put paid to that.

A decision on that, she has told the Committee, will not be made until all the reports and assessments she has ordered, including the Mazars report. She has said it is her intention to decide in the first half of 2024.

She has also indicated that the reason she is taken her time is she wants to make a decision that is robust and future-proofed.

“Successive Governments have failed on this issue. This is the Government that will grasp the nettle.”

That has been the strongest quotes of a day in which her approach has been characterised by caution.

Failures of Toy Show The Musical will not be tolerated ever again, says Catherine Martin

Shane Cassells is the first to bring up Toy Show The Musical. He says that RTÉ came in with cap and hand looking for money. He is critical of its attitude.

Catherine Martin says that RTÉ will not be getting any further money until it can show a change of attitude.

It prompts her strongest comments so far.

“There were huge corporate governance failures in relation to the Toy Show The Musical and also an incredible commercial failure. That will not be tolerated. They know that that will not be tolerated ever again.”

Marie Sherlock has asked about the possibility of redundancies and also asked Catherine Martin what she expects to see in terms of cost-savings.

She has replied that that is for them to present in their strategic vision.

“None of us want to see redundancies. You know, because as you said, the staff are the innocent victims.”

Funding decision will be made in the first half of 2024, says Minister

Under questioning from Malcolm Byrne, and earlier from Imelda Munster, Minister for Media Catherine Martin has said that a decision on the future funding RTÉ will be made in the first half of 2024.

She said that before any decision has been made, the “element of trust has to be there”.

She agrees that it is taking time but argues that she wants the decision that is ultimately made on RTÉ's future funding model to be the correct one.

“Successive Governments have failed on this issue. This is the Government that will grasp the nettle.”

Asked by Mr Byrne will it happen in the first half of 2024, she replies: “That is what I am aiming for.”

Although the focus is obviously on the interim funding right now, there are discussions on the fringes of that in relation to the future funding model. We have not taken the foot off the pedal on that.”

Next to ask questions is Imelda Munster who asks the Minister directly if she is going to get rid of the barter account.

The Minister replies that barter account was not operated in the way it should have been.

She says: “I think that’s why they are re looking for it to expand the terms of reference (for forensic accountants Mazars). The examination is now going to go back to the very origins of the barter account in 2012 rather than just doing from 2017.

“Certainly, there are question marks over the barter account but as I said it is about the operation. It’s very clear they can no longer use the barter account for goods and services. It’s now only been been been carried or it can only be cashed out. All trade agreements with the three barter agencies and RTÉ have to be signed off by both the barter agencies and RTÉ's head of trading.”

Munster also presses her on what the thinking is in relation to reform the TV licence fee. She replies that she had hoped she would be able to make a decision before the Summer recess but the decision has been paused pending the outcome of a spate of reviews and examinations in RTÉ.

She cannot give a definitive date.

Alan Dillon is now asking about the status of the interim funding request. Catherine Martin says she can’t reveal the exact figure as it is been discussed with her colleagues right now. She is not revealing her hand.

She said there was already an existing commitment from the Government of €15 million. “And in order to fulfil that statutory obligation, I believe we should be looking at that figure in this budget of €16 million that is recommended in the Future of Media Commission and anything else above that.

“I believe we should wait until we see the strategic vision and see what the plans are for robust governance for the future of RTÉ in terms of cost efficiencies to taxpayers, not just on news and current affairs but on entertainment and education and independent production ... We need to see a very clear plan on the robust governance going forward on the cost efficiencies that they would put in place and not not above that amount until we see that,” she says.

The first TD to ask questions is Fine Gael TD Alan Dillon, who has been one of the more impressive performers in both this committee and also in the PAC.

Dillon has asked the Minister is she confident that RTÉ has handled this situation well since what he described as the “scandal” first broke.

She has said she has full faith in the chair Siún Raghallaigh and the board which she says have done everything correctly since the issue has emerged in March.

Dillon says that the failures of the board have not been addressed adequately and instances that Catherine Martin was left in the dark about decisions by the board in relation to the resignation of the former director general Dee Forbes.

She agrees that she was late in finding out but says that the chair contacted her and explained that it pertained to due process.

Catherine Martin is now reading her opening statement.

The meeting has just started with Niamh Smyth in the chair.

Hi it’s Harry McGee and I will be providing live coverage of the meeting of the Oireachtas Media Committee.

The Committee, chaired by Fianna Fáil TD Niamh Smyth, has been examining many of the governance issues that have emerged at the broadcaster during the controversy involving undisclosed payments to broadcaster Ryan Tubridy.

One of the central issues, of course, was the use of a very unorthodox channel, to process payments to Mr Tubridy.

This was the so-called barter account which had been set up to handle, among other things, revenue (mainly from Britain) for trade, and income and expenditure associated with the selling on of advertising slots that had not been taken up.

The barter account was used to channel two payments, worth €150,000, to Mr Tubridy in relation to year two and year three of a side deal that was agreed between his agent, Noel Kelly, and RTÉ executives. The original deal related to an agreement where Mr Tubridy would host a number of events for Late Late Show sponsors Renault for a period of three years, for a fee of €75,000 annually. Renault paid the fee in the first year but received €75,000 in value from RTÉ in advertising and commercial arrangements, making it into a contra deal. In the second and third year, Renault was not involved and the payments to Mr Tubridy were made directly by RTÉ. However, a decision was made to channel the payments through the barter accounts, which did not make them visible.