The number of people believed to have received the Pandemic Unemployment Payment (PUP) at times they were working has “increased quite significantly”, with the estimate more than doubling to between 50,000 and 60,000 people.
A report published last year by the Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) outlined how the Department of Social Protection estimated that about 20,000 people received the PUP at times they were working and there was the possibility of recovering up to €70 million.
Department secretary general John McKeon told the Dáil’s Public Accounts Committee (PAC) that more than €16 million has been recovered so far.
He also provided an update on the number of instances of overlap with people receiving the PUP while they were working.
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Mr McKeon said it had “increased quite significantly” after a detailed analysis that involved cross-checking all the payments of the PUP week by week against employment records.
He said: “We’re now looking at between 50,000 and 60,000 cases where there is an overlap.”
Mr McKeon said that in some cases that’s a “legitimate overlap”.
He said: “Pandemic Unemployment Payment was paid on a full-week basis.
“If somebody went back to work on a Monday, that was the legislation, they still got the payment for that week.
“So there’s a bit of filtering still to be done.
“But we’d estimate that – and this would be a very cautious estimate – if every single one of them was a legitimate overlap you’re looking at about €200 million.
“It won’t work out at being €200 million. But we’re now setting up a unit in our office in Sligo where they’ll spend the next year contacting all the people involved, making checks with them.”
Fianna Fáil TD Paul McAuliffe raised concern that people who had never received social welfare before the PUP, and were then overpaid, might be faced with the repayment in a lump sum when they next engaged with the department. He gave the example of when they become entitled to their State pension.
Mr McAuliffe said it would not be appropriate to write off the debt but a lump sum being sought upon retirement would not be appropriate either.
Mr McKeon told him: “You’re singing our tune.”
He noted that the C&AG report highlighted “the need to communicate with people to let them know their status in terms of debts and so on, and that’s something we’re continuously looking at”.
He said the department intends to automate that process with a yearly reminder to people that they have a debt related to an overpayment.
Mr McKeon added: “We mightn’t be chasing you for it now but remember the next time you come in we might.”
He confirmed that if people did not repay the debt during their working life, the intention would be to recoup the money when they next engaged with the department.
He said letters on PUP overpayments will be sent out “fairly soon” and people will be offered and opportunity to repay in full or agree a repayment plan in instalments.
He said “most of the overpayments are probably a couple of hundred euro rather than thousands”.
Mr McKeon there is an online option for repaying with bank cards, not credit cards, and if people were paying in instalments, it would be low amounts.
Earlier C&AG Seamus McCarthy outlined wider welfare overpayments where a claimant either receives a payment they are not entitled to, or the level of payment exceeds their entitlement.
He said: “The total value of overpayments raised in recent years has been relatively stable, in the range €100 million to €125 million per annum.”
Mr McCarthy said his report on the matter “recommended that the department seek further opportunities to engage with claimants, to make them aware of their responsibilities to inform the department of any changes in their circumstances that could affect their payment entitlements”.
He said: “At the end of December 2022, the department had total outstanding overpayment debt of €495 million.”
Mr McCarthy said he recommended that the Department carry out a formal review of the reasons why debt may not be recoverable in an effort to reduce the requirement for debt write-offs in future periods.
His report also recommended that the department expedite the raising of overpayment debt arising from excess payments issued under the PUP scheme.
Mr McKeon said his department has accepted the various recommendations in the C&AG report.
