THE former Fine Gael chairman, Mr Michael Lowry TD, approached a Fine Gael TD for Westmeath, Mr Paul McGrath in Leinster House and told him his opposition to a Mullingar development linked with Dunnes Stores was "sending out the wrong message" to Mr Ben Dunne, the tribunal was told. Mr McGrath said he told Mr Lowry to "eff off".
Mr McGrath said that Mr Lowry told him Mr Dunne was a major contributor to the Fine Gael party.
The conversation was concerned with a development in Harbour Place, Mullingar, which was recommended by Westmeath County Council for inclusion in areas to be given special status under the urban renewal scheme. Westmeath County Council voted to recommend the site for the status and this was later accepted by the then government.
At the time of the conversation, in 1994, in Leinster House the council vote had already occurred and the council's role in the affair was complete.
"Mr Lowry indicated to me he was aware of my opposition to this designated status for the development in Mullingar and the opposition of my colleagues on the council," Mr McGrath told Mr Michael Collins SC, for the tribunal.
"He suggested to me that perhaps we should change our decision, that we should wind down our opposition to it, and it was based on the fact that he said to me that Mr Ben Dunne was a major contributor to the party."
Mr Lowry had said that, as a senior member of the party, as a party spokesman on education, Mr McGrath "wasn't sending out the right messages to Ben Dunne" by his opposition to the development being given special status.
Counsel pointed out that the decision had already been taken by the council. "It seemed to me the emphasis of what he (Mr Lowry) was saying was more related to the optics of the situation," Mr McGrath replied.
He did not remember the exact words but Mr Lowry said that Fine Gael had a debt problem at that time and Mr Dunne had made a significant contribution to the party.
Asked for his response to Mr Lowry, Mr McGrath said: "I think I left him, in all, in no uncertain mind where I stood on the issue."
He said his exact words might be inappropriate for a tribunal. Pressed by counsel, he said: "Let's just say that I told him to eff off."
Mr McGrath said he made the comment in the sense of meaning "mind your own business in relation to my home base". Mr Lowry said he knew Mr McGrath had to look after his own home base.
The conversation had occurred around March or April. He had never spoken to Mr Dunne. He was aware of the media coverage of events concerning Mr Dunne in Florida in 1992 and his removal from executive functions in Dunnes Stores in 1993 and the subsequent family battle.
Mr Collins said that in this context there would seem to be some illogicality about Mr Dunne being concerned in 1994 about a Dunnes Stores development.
Mr McGrath said: "I'd prefer to be elsewhere. I'd prefer not to be caught up in this tribunal at all. But I'm telling you the facts of what happened. You can analyse it all you like."
Mr Collins asked if he was struck by the illogicality of Mr Lowry's approach at the time.
Mr McGrath: "No."
Mr Collins: "Ever since?"
Mr McGrath: "Perhaps since you started, asking me the questions, yes.
Mr McGrath added that it had to be considered that at the time Mr Lowry had some considerable business interests as well, and the "fall-out" from the dispute within Dunnes Stores was occurring.
Mr McGrath agreed with counsel that he had responded to a letter from the tribunal sent out before the April sitting and had stated he had received no payment or benefit from Dunnes. He had subsequently contacted the tribunal in early May. He had done this because of the evidence given to the tribunal during April. "It then struck me that my conversation with Mr Lowry could perhaps be very relevant." This would be especially so if Mr Lowry was to take the stand and say he had not intervened with anybody, he said.
Mr McGrath decided that "in conscience" he should intervene before the event. Mr Collins thanked him for his cooperation.
In reply to Mr Patrick Hunt, counsel for Mr Dermot McPhillips and Deerland Construction Ltd, the developers of the Harbour Place shopping centre in Mullingar, Mr McGrath agreed that everything in relation to planning permission and the request for designated status for the centre had been done in a proper manner.
Mr Hunt said that in April 1994 no agreement had been concluded with Dunnes Stores, and the developer was in discussion with a number of possible anchor tenants. Dunnes Stores did not sign the agreement until 1996.