Johnny Sexton and Henry Shefflin reveal how self-belief and impostor syndrome have helped drive their careers

Driven is a new five-part series of conversations with Johnny Sexton. Produced by Laya Healthcare the show explores the power of uncompromising self-belief.

The host, former footballer Richie Sadlier, sits down with well-known personalities from the world of Irish sport to discuss the importance of trusting yourself. In it he unpicks how each develop the drive needed to propel themselves to the top of their game.

The series includes pro-golfer, Leona Maguire, All-Ireland winner and Ladies National Football League title holder, Cora Staunton and U20′s Grand Slam coach Mark Sexton, Johnny’s older brother, who all offer their thoughts and insights

Launching this week is episode three, which features a very open conversation between Laya brand ambassador and captain of the Irish rugby squad, Johnny Sexton and Henry Shefflin, leaders who brought similar energy and leadership to their fields.

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Below is a sneak preview of some of the points they make.

Johnny Sexton:

What drives and has motivated you to maintain the standard you have for as long as you have?

“It’s very hard to pinpoint. How you’re brought up is a huge part of it, wanting to do the best you can at whatever you do. That was essentially the message driven into me from my parents. If you’re going to do something, you do it properly.”

Are those big moment wins addictive and how do they push you on?

“Definitely yeah. The moments in the dressing room; the moments with your family; all of those, it’s the sense of achievement. But when it started, we weren’t always successful. I was driven when I didn’t know what success felt like. I was obsessed with Sir Alex Ferguson, Roy Keane, obsessed with teams that won consecutively. Anyone can win once, but how can you win five, six, seven times? How can you stay at the top? That’s what I’ve been attracted to.”

When you first break into a team many don’t really think about self-belief, they just go with it. Would you have been like that?

“In some ways. I kind of came onto the scene and then went off the scene, then came back. Gordon D’Arcy broke his arm, which meant that Felipe Contepomi went to twelve and I played ten. And we had a great year. I pretty much played the full season, number ten for that campaign. We won the league.

“But the following season they signed Isa Nacewa, who can play ten. Contepomi is now back at ten because Gordon D’Arcy is back from injury. And suddenly now I’m third choice. And I was sent back to St. Mary’s to play club rugby.”

How did you feel about that?

“I was angry. I was frustrated. I learned a lot of lessons. They gave me a couple of chances at ten that year but because I had Felipe and Isa to compete with I was like - okay - I’m going to show that I can do all the things that they can do. And I got away from what I was good at, which was trying to manage the game and trying to bring in other players around me. I was trying to do things that I couldn’t, and that’s what got me dropped.

“I learned a lot from that. I don’t think my self-belief ever wavered, but I was always worried about what other people thought. Michael Cheika was the coach; he doesn’t think I’m good enough, but I’ll show him! You know what I mean? That was my mentality.”

Did you think of leaving when you weren’t involved with Leinster?

“I was trying to leave Leinster. I was like - well, I have no future here. I was trying to go to every club in the country.”

In 2021, mid-thirties you didn’t get picked for the British and Irish tour to South Africa – some said you were finished. But you had other ideas – what were they?

“It was very tough to take. I desperately wanted to go. I’d been to Australia and New Zealand and then, to finish it off with your last appearance for the Lions (would) complete the set. I thought I should have gone. I was gutted. It really knocked me. But it kind of refuelled me for the last couple of years.”

Did that refuelling include you showing your vulnerable side more?

“I think teams now are allowing you to be more vulnerable and to open up a bit more, but you have to have a forum to do it. So the coach needs to go “how’s everyone going”? Now you’d like to think someone can go and say they’re really struggling at the moment, or they’re nervous, or they’re anxious about the pressures.”

What did you learn during your two years in Paris playing for Racing 92?

“I learned so much. I went in, and the president was in my ear saying “you need to change the culture”. So I went in all guns blazing. If I knew then what I know now, I’d go in and just build relationships first, try to get to know these people, and then slowly do it. And then - lo and behold - two years later, I come back to Leinster, I’m like “right, I’m not going to make the same mistake again; I’m going to ease myself in”. The lads were like “What’s wrong with you? That’s not Johnny - that’s the opposite!”. Yeah, I should have come back and been myself with Leinster. But it made me realise that you’ve got to learn about people. What fits one guy doesn’t fit another. Essentially leadership is about trying to figure out how to get the best out of someone, and it’s not one size fits all. I know that I’ve learned it too late in my career. I wish I had learned it a bit earlier.”

Henry Shefflin

What is my self-belief and was it always in evidence?

It’s something that I think you have to have, but I think it’s something that you develop over your career, but that confidence and that belief within yourself is so important. And I suppose I can think of all the good times when I had that, but what’s probably more pronounced in me, is the times where I didn’t have it. And that is the real struggle, I think, is when you’re lacking that self-belief. And I’m sure you’re thinking now what’s the next question in the sense of how do you overcome that, how do you get to the next stage? And that’s something that really interests me about the top sports people around the world. Because I’m sure they have those impostor syndrome kind of doubts themselves.

Did I have imposter syndrome?

Oh yeah, absolutely I can remember playing I had played seven or eight All Irelands at this stage and I can remember the Thursday night before we played Tipperary in the 2009 All Ireland final and I remember lying in my bed crying to my wife saying I can’t do this.

Did the manager or your teammates know about this?

No, absolutely not. No, because you’re seen as one of the leaders, so you have to be one of the strong individuals in the group, so Jesus, no. And even a few days celebrating after we actually won the game, you would not say anything like that.

When did you first say it?

Was probably when I retired, actually, that I told any of my teammates.

You waited till then?

It was only when I kind of truly reflected, when I was doing my autobiography at the end of my career, that I kind of realized it. I also started to get injuries. And this also brought some self-belief doubts. During the injuries phase I met someone who was a friend, first and foremost, who helped me with some of my injuries but also became a kind of psychiatrist and counsellor. And it was probably through him I started to talk about incidents like that. This helped me in the latter stages of my career.

Watch Episode 3 of Laya Healthcare’s video series Driven, featuring Johnny Sexton and Henry Shefflin, hosted by Riche Sadlier here