Mr Gabriel Grehan, the former director of Joseph Murphy Structural Engineering who told the leader of the Progressive Democrats, Ms Mary Harney, that Mr Ray Burke had been paid £30,000 by JMSE, was attending a conference in Cheshire with his wife at the time Mr Dermot Ahern TD was questioning Mr Joseph Murphy jnr in London, the Flood tribunal was told.
This was the first time it had heard that Mr Grehan was not in the State between June 18th and 25th, 1997, said Mr John Gallagher SC, for the tribunal. The significance of this lay in the fact that the outline evidence from the former general secretary of the PDs, Mr Garvan McGinley, who is to appear before the tribunal today, attested that Mr Grehan called him on his mobile phone around this time and asked to speak to Ms Harney - and Mr McGinley did not believe he had made the call from England.
He wanted to talk to Ms Harney "in relation to matters that might concern her in the formation of a government", Mr Grehan told Mr Gallagher.
Had he told Ms Harney that Mr Dermot Ahern was going to London "at the behest of the leader of Fianna Fail" to interview Mr Murphy? He might not have said "at the behest", but he had told her, Mr Grehan agreed.
Mr Gallagher: "That meant you had prior knowledge of Dermot Ahern's visit to Mr Murphy." When, where and in what circumstances had he known about this, counsel asked.
Mr Grehan replied that he had been told by Mr Frank Reynolds, the JMSE managing director, at the company's offices in Santry.
He had spoken about more than "allegations" when examined earlier by Mr Gallagher, counsel reminded him. Mr Grehan agreed. However, he and Mr Reynolds had been assured by Mr Murphy jnr that the £30,000 paid to Mr Burke had "nothing to do with planning matters" and he had wanted to convey this to Ms Harney also.
Mr Dermot Ahern met Mr Murphy jnr on June 24th, 1997, Mr Gallagher recalled. The TD's evidence to the tribunal was that he had been asked by Mr Bertie Ahern on June 21st to travel to London to interview Mr Murphy: "You have said you were not in the country between June 18th and 24th, yet you spoke to Frank Reynolds and he told you about it. Can you reconcile what appears to be a discrepancy in the dates?" He could not, Mr Grehan responded.