`Well I didn't get into pop music because I wanted to be popular. I got into music because I wanted to play music." Aimee Mann, a critically acclaimed but commercially neglected singer/songwriter, is warming to her theme of the reluctant rock star.
"There are some things which you never get comfortable with. If somebody wants to ask something in an interview then that's fine. You don't feel that you have to sell yourself. Doing stuff like videos and photo shoots is like `look at me, look at me' and if you don't like people to look at you in the first place then it makes it kind of awkward."
She is talking to The Irish Times from her home in Los Angeles which she shares with her husband, fellow songwriter, Michael Penn, brother of acting duo, Sean and Chris. The Mann/Penn alliance of two seriously gifted serious songwriters seems at odds with the ephemeral and unreal world of pop. It is as they would want it. As both have made clear, in particular Mann through both word and song, they have little time for the music industry or the people who run it.
Perhaps it is because they have both suffered from its capricious dealings. In the early 1980s, after leaving Berklee School of Music, Mann fronted a fine Boston-based power pop band, 'Til Tuesday. For her it was clearly a grim education in the music business, though the band's third and final album, Everything's Different Now, is generally considered a minor classic full of the melodies and acerbic lyrics for which she is now celebrated. From there this brilliant but brittle artist stumbled into the 1990s and a solo career. However, her output was limited to two well-received solo albums, What- ever and I'm With Stupid, as she seemed to hit every rock in the industry sea.
That was until last year when her friend, the director, Paul Thomas Anderson (Boogie Nights), was inspired by a number of her songs to write the movie, Magnolia, which in turn led to nominations for major awards and a career reborn.
"That was so amazing. I literally did not believe it until the movie came out. I had said to Paul: `I'm very flattered that you want to put my songs in your movie'. I just never thought it would actually happen because movies are so erratic, scenes get cut or the studio says `Who is this person? We have to get a tie-in with Sony. We need some modern pop music on this soundtrack."
Anderson sings his praises of the songwriter in the sleeve-notes for the excellent Magnolia soundtrack. And she appreciates what he has done. "Well God bless him. He did a great job of it (turning the songs into the various scenes which make up the movie). I think his interpretation is a little more chaotic than I would have intended but you know."
The soundtrack shares three songs with her new solo album, Bachelor No 2, which, shamefully, has yet to gain a general release in this country. But we'll be hearing many of the new songs when Mann and Penn bring their mainly acoustic vaudeville review complete with comic to Vicar Street for two nights, July 16th and 17th.
"The comic idea started out when we played Tuesday nights at this venue called Largo's which was owned by a friend. It's pretty loose. You can do pretty much anything you want. The audience are real music lovers who are interested in whatever you feel like trotting out. So just as a gag Michael and I - you know we find it difficult to talk between songs - had an idea to have a comedian friend of ours introduce the songs. And it went over so well, it was so funny, that we did every show there like that. And then when it came time to tour we said why don't we take the Largo show on the road?`
"I know a lot of people think Michael and I are very serious. We're certainly very serious about what we do and we want to do it well - it's meaningful to us. But that doesn't mean we're humourless. People think wrongly that the two are synonymous.`
In a recent New Yorker piece, British author Nick Hornby approvingly described Aimee Mann as having a "self-righteous sense of grievance". However, he rejected the criticisms of leading American rock critic Greil Marcus who had complained of Mann's tendency to moan about her life in her songs.
She is quick to her own defence. "People jump to conclusions. They listen to the songs and then they project their experience onto that. If they are not in a good mood then they read a song that way. It reminds them of someone who is complaining. Very rarely am I asked what I mean in certain songs. Very often I write things that I think are funny or sarcastic and they are taken literally. And I understand that. There isn't a little booklet which says watch out for the sarcasm in verse No 2. Everybody knows the things I write about are fairly personal, about my relationships, and that makes some people very uncomfortable."
And then she adds, tongue presumably firmly in cheek: "But who amongst us has not had a relationship with someone who was very difficult. You know you try to work it out, make everybody happy, and they are crazy and unreasonable - you know these people exist!"
For Aimee Mann this year has been notable not just for the fact that she has released two albums and has begun to receive the kind of success she has long deserved, but also because she turns 40. In addition, it is clear that her relationship with Michael Penn is something she really values.
Speaking of these changes she says: "For me it is all an internal thing. Getting married wasn't as important as getting to the point where I could have an actual relationship with another human being. So realising a relationship rather than following the crazy patterns of my previous attempts was much more important than my wedding day."
So is this what might be termed maturity? "I think the most important thing for me is to figure out stuff in my life so that I do not do things for reasons that are unknown to me. I don't want to act in reaction to events or to people. I don't want to act unconsciously. I want to know why I'm doing the things that I'm doing, why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling. I want to figure it out. You know most people are damaged by their upbringing some way or other, some more than others. I'm probably on the high side with damage and it controls your life."
But she has been working her way out of this mental prison. "Yes for the last 10 years, whether I was in or out of therapy, I've being reading a lot about human behaviour. And everything I read is helpful, whether it is a book about child development or about serial killers. It is all information. And that is my top priority. That is what makes me a good songwriter, and that's what allows me to be more mature, to have a real life and a real relationship. You know, make a decision on what I really want, not just react against things."
Aimee Mann has travelled a long road in her search for personal happiness and artistic fulfilment. Her version of the modern pop song is rich in melody but beneath the inviting harmonies and wonderfully intricate arrangements there lies a complex and troubled mind seeking clarity in lyrics of bare-knuckle bitterness and romantic despair. It's mature music that demands a mature response. And there are no simple happy endings.
"Am I to write about a relationship in which everything was fine, went swimmingly, when everybody was very agreeable? For me, the function of songwriting helps me to focus on how I think about a certain situation or how I feel about it. And if I'm really happy I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out why."
Aimee Mann brings her Acoustic Vaudeville show, with Michael Penn and Patton Oswald to Vicar Street, Dublin, on Sunday, Monday and Wednesday, July 16th and 17th and 19th; to the Galway Arts Festival on Tuesday, July 18th. Magnolia is released on Warner. Bachelor No 2 is available through www.aimeemann.com