She looks the part of chairwoman: tall, assured, even imperious. She is also good-looking. Unlike the chairmen and women of other State bodies, the chairwoman of the National Gallery is elected by the members of the board and she was the unanimous choice, first in 1996 and then in 1998.
She retires on March 17th, very pleased with what she repeatedly refers to as a "triumph", the new millennium wing of the National Gallery.
She was appointed to the board of the National Gallery by Charles Haughey in 1991. She thinks she was appointed mainly because she was a woman and Charlie was looking for women to serve on State boards at the time. She was also known to have an interest in painting, for there is an impressive collection of painting (mainly of Irish artists) at her palatial home at Stackallen House, Co Meath. And she did a course on the history of European painting at Trinity College.
But it is likely that Charlie also had in mind that Carmel was married to one of the richest people in Ireland, Martin Naughton - actually THE richest person living in Ireland, for most of the other mega-rich Irish people live in the Bahamas, or Monte Carlo or cyberspace. Martin Naughton is the majority shareholder in Glen Dimplex and is worth in excess of half a billion euro.
And Charlie might have had a hunch that Martin would be a good benefactor, a hunch which turned out to be well founded.
Martin and Carmel Naughton gave £1 million towards the new millennium wing, as a plaque in the main hall of the wing proudly asserts - more about that plaque later.
She was born in Monaghan town. Her father was a Garda sergeant. There were eight in the family: two boys and six girls. Her two brothers died in the last 18 months. She went to St Louis Convent, Monaghan, and then to do teacher-training at St Mary Immaculate College, Limerick. She went back to St Louis Convent to teach and then taught for years at Réalt na Mara primary school in Dundalk. She met Martin Naughton at a Fleadh Ceoil in Mullingar. They have three children, a daughter who is now married and runs Donnybrook Travel, and two sons, both of whom are now with Glen Dimplex.
Asked what its like to be that rich, Carmel says it means she can give to charity or friends if she wants to, she doesn't have to look at price tags in shops, they have servants at Stackallen (the house is referred to almost deferentially) but she has to do the cooking at weekends.
Asked how much Martin is worth, she says she hasn't added it up. She does allow however that when she travels by train she goes first class.
She claims she didn't canvass for the job of chairwoman of the Gallery.
She says it was "suggested" to her that she allow her name to be put forward. She told her husband about this and he said, look around the board, who else could do a better job? So she decided to "throw her hat in the ring and see what happens".
There were reports that, unlike her predecessor as chairman of the National Gallery, William Finlay, she had been a divisive chairperson.
On that note we started the formal interview.
VB Has the board much divided since you became chairwoman?
CN It really is amazing and I can say this wholeheartedly, we never had a split vote, not about anything, (pause) except very recently but it didn't go to the vote. But we never had a split vote.
VB What was the issue very recently?
CN I'd prefer not to answer because it was resolved. But there was at one stage when we started fund-raising, if you remember Charles Haughey chaired the National Gallery Foundation initially. He wasn't in the chair at my initiation; he had been invited to chair it before I became chairman of the actual board. He did a very good job, he brought in £5 million. When we were refused planning permission (to knock down a Georgian building in Clare St now adjoining the new wing) there was a danger that our project might have been seen to have been blown out of the water and that many of the people who had promised to make donations to the Gallery might go off and fund other arts projects that were around at the time. That was the reason that I wanted to keep the identity of the donors secret at the time (this was the issue of contention on the board of the Gallery). They (the names of the donors) are now up on the wall now (in the millennium wing) and there's no big deal with any of them. I am pleased to say that none of them are, at this stage anyway, involved in a tribunal.
VB Yet.
CN Because, that was always the worry (that one of the prominent donors would end up in front of one of the tribunals).
VB Tony O'Reilly is to end up in front of a tribunal - he will have to explain to the Flood tribunal why Fitzwilton gave £30,000 by way of a cheque made out to cash to Ray Burke in June 1989 and why this payment was concealed in the company accounts.
CN Not mincing words, the donation (to the gallery) was given by his wife, Chris, in memory of her father.
VB The plaque says "Sir Anthony and Lady O'Reilly".
CN That's right. But if you go to the room you'll find that the room is named after Chris's father.
VB By the way, why did you concede to the conceit in allowing O'Reilly and his wife describe themselves as "Sir Anthony and Lady O'Reilly" on that plaque?
CN (Pause and lots of smiles) I think probably a lot of people have views about that. For various reasons we had to consult donors about what they wanted to be placed on the plaque. For instance, the late P.V. Doyle's daughter, Bernie Gallagher, had agreed to make a donation to honour the memory of her father. We had to ask her whether her name or her father's should go on the plaque. In the case of Tony O'Reilly, the words were his choice. Sir Anthony is the name he goes by now.
VB The millennium wing is certainly very striking both from outside on Clare Street and immediately inside with that spectacular atrium. But it does seem a pity that so much money should be spent on an art gallery building when only about 20 per cent of the space is available for exhibitions, as the architect, David Slattery, has pointed out. So much money for a large bookshop and a huge cafeteria? David has pointed out that the cost per painting space in the new wing is £100,000.
CN I think we have to live in the real world. I think the Gallery can't keep going back to the taxpayer. The bookshop in the National Gallery has always been a very nice little earner for us and indeed it was with some of the revenue from the bookshop that we managed to acquire the sites in the first place on Clare Street. People now coming into a Gallery expect to be able at the very least to have a cup of coffee. They want to be able to view paintings, works of art, they expect to be able to sit down, rest their weary limbs, look through a catalogue, look through the plan of the building, have a coffee, have a bite of lunch and go through it. Now again, the restaurant also is an earner for the Gallery. It is also a facility. With regard to the bookshop as well, one of the important remits of the gallery is to educate the public. By publishing our own books, by having them for sale in the bookshop along with other art and hopefully architectural books, we will be looking after that remit, if you like.
VB There are lots of restaurants and cafes around and the best bookshops in Dublin are just down the road.
CN It's very important that we make sure that the bookshop is the best art and architectural bookshop in Dublin. Other bookshops might have an art section but ours is entirely devoted to art and I hope some architecture. It's also very important that we have an independent source of revenue for the future.
VB How are your relations with Síle de Valera? I understand that you were almost not on speaking terms at the opening ceremony?
CN I was of the opinion that the opening of the millennium wing was of national importance and that the President should officiate at the opening. However, the Minister was of the opinion that as she had opened everything else in Ireland - when the National Museum went to Collins Barracks it was opened by the Minister, when there was an extension to the Museum over in Sligo recently, the Museum of Irish Country Life, the Minister opened that. So she was of the opinion that protocol in Ireland demanded that she should open the new wing.
VB That explains the bad relations with her.
CN I wouldn't say there are bad relations with her.
VB Were there friendly exchanges between you on the evening of the opening?
CB There were exchanges between us, yes.
VB That bad?
CN No. No. It's not that bad. I was disappointed at what had happened but she is the Minister. The National Gallery of Ireland is very dependent on our parent Department for funds, for goodwill.
VB How are your relations with Raymond Keaveney (the director of the National Gallery)?
CN Excellent. Raymond and I, we often have our moments. We have had some bad moments during the past number of years, of course we have. But Raymond has always been most professional, most courteous and we always shake hands in the end and, to answer your question, relations are excellent.
VB There is a perception that you involve yourself too much in the day-to-day running of the gallery and that thereby you have undermined him?
CN I have read that in the paper, yes, but I don't think that is true. I did set up was a sub-committee system to assist the executive.
There are a lot of very talented people on the board. We were meeting once every two months, it was very difficult to get all the business of the meetings packed into one afternoon and I felt that as a support to the executive that a subcommittee system should be set up and this has worked admirably well. We have a very good research education library under Professor David Spearman. We have an exhibitions committee which, for example - I'll name them out for you first. We have an exhibitions committee which is chaired by Tony Cronin, a buildings and grounds committee which is chaired by Ken Rohan, a finance committee chaired by Michael O'Reilly and a Friends committee which was chaired by Billy Ringrose who was president of the RDS. Each of those committees works very well.
VB I understand that Raymond felt particularly undermined by you in the run-up to the opening of the millennium wing.
CN I wasn't aware of that. There are little things, you know, the guest list for the dinner the night before. We honed that and honed that and honed that because we wanted everybody to fit into the Shaw room but you know, there was never a questionHe may have felt under terrible pressure from all the staff.
VB Did you buy paintings for the gallery over the heads of the director and the other executive staff and without the authority of the board? Two pictures by Nathaniel Hone?
CN What happened there was, two good Irish paintings came up in London. I was phoned by the chairman of OPW (Office of Public Works) who asked for my help in acquiring these paintings. OPW had tried to persuade out parent Department (Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands) that OPW should be considered as a purchasing body under this, Section 1003 (of the Consolidated Finance Acts 1997) where somebody can buy a painting for the gallery and donate it and get a rebate on their tax. As it was the chairman of OPW and as the National Gallery is very dependent on OPW, I took the decision that, yes, it would be possible to do this.
Now the paintings were subsequently brought to the board and the board agreed that, yes, it was a correct decision to purchase them.
VB But you took the decision over the head of the director and the chief curator to purchase these paintings?
CN No. I wouldn't say that. No. I was asked would the gallery facilitate OPW in purchasing these paintings and I said we would. We can't change a light bulb without OPW.
VB Going back to the money thing. How much did various donors listed on that plaque contribute? You and your husband contributed one million punts, how much did O'Reilly contribute?
CN I prefer not to go into the amounts of money. It will come out in freedom of information but I don't want to be the channel through which this information comes out. All these people gave money before it became tax effective. For example the million Martin and I paid, we paid our tax on the million and then we gave the million to the gallery. So the taxpayer, if you like, has a double benefit and it got the tax on the million and then it got the million.
VB Did O'Reilly and Lady O'Reilly pay a million as well?
CN No. They didn't give a million but they gave a very substantial amount.
VB How much did you raise altogether from private sources?
CN We raised €7.6 million from the private sector, €9.5 million from the EU and €10.9 million from the State, the taxpayer, I prefer to say the taxpayer. But against that €10.9 million from the State, we paid €3.5 million back on VAT, and the tax paid on the private donations, you're looking at about €6 million. The taxpayer has paid €6 million to date on this building.
VB There was a report some time ago in The Irish Times where board members were concerned about fund-raising by the National Gallery Foundation during the time that Charles Haughey was chairman. What happened here?
CN That report came from Geraldine Kennedy. She phoned me at home one Sunday evening as I was literally dangling my child on my knee and I said to her, Geraldine, I have set up, not just me, but the board had set up a situation where it was not possible for a single individual to make off with the funds. I agreed to meet Geraldine Kennedy the following Friday and I told her I would show her as much as was relevant of our financial accounts. She rang me again on the Thursday evening to say they decided to run with the story and there was a banner headline in the Times on the Friday.
I said, Geraldine, I hope you are sure of your facts because as far as I am concerned, this could not have happened. There was a slight inference I think that I was a babe in arms, an innocent abroad if you like, and that I could have been duped.
The Irish Times ran with the story. There is no evidence that anything other than absolute straight dealing was done with regard to Mr Haughey and his dealings with the National Gallery. He himself came out with a very strong denial. I am yet awaiting for Geraldine Kennedy to apologise to me but I don't expect that will happen.
I have to say, however, that the article by Frank McDonald in the Irish Times on Saturday week last set us all alight. The staff were absolutely exhausted and there was a sense of pessimism over our chances of being ready for the opening. Even if the board and the staff had all got together and written the most fairytale article about the millennium wing, we couldn't have written better than Frank McDonald. It set the tone for the opening.