A former director of Joseph Murphy Structural Engineering director told the Flood tribunal yesterday that Ms Mary Harney might have misunderstood him in June 1997 when he rang her about rumours of payments to a politician.
Ms Harney testified at the tribunal previously that Mr Gay Grehan told her that, as he understood it, Mr Ray Burke received £30,000 from JMSE and it was matched by a sum from Bovale and that the money was paid to secure planning permission or rezoning of land.
Yesterday Mr John Gallagher SC, for the tribunal, asked Mr Grehan how he had come to know about the rumours. Mr Grehan replied: "From the media".
Mr Gallagher said: "Are you saying that you telephoned her [Ms Harney] to tell her that there were rumours in the media to the effect that an unnamed politician had received monies?".
"Exactly," Mr Grehan said.
Mr Grehan said there was rumour and hearsay in the company emanating from Mr James Gogarty. Mr Grehan said when he heard it first, he took it up with Mr Frank Reynolds, the managing director, who said there was no truth in it.
Mr Gallagher asked if the rumour indicated how much money, when it was paid, and who had made the payments. Mr Grehan replied "No" to each question.
Mr Gallagher asked: "Did you name any politician [to Ms Harney]?". Mr Grehan replied: "No, I didn't name any politician, no.".
Mr Gallagher quoted what Ms Harney had told the tribunal in relation to the payment to Mr Burke.
"That was the rumour, yes," said Mr Grehan. "I told Ms Harney that as far as I was concerned, there was no truth in the rumour."
Mr Gallagher said: "And you did not name Ray Burke?" Mr Grehan said: "That's right."
Around that time, he phoned Mr Joseph Murphy jnr who told him he was dealing with the matter and there was no truth in the allegations.
Mr Gallagher asked in the light of all that how he had told Ms Harney that it was his understanding that JMSE had made a payment of £30,000 to Mr Burke. "It was rumour," said Mr Grehan.
Mr Gallagher said Ms Harney did not say it was a rumour. She had said it was Mr Grehan's understanding. "Are you saying that Ms Harney's evidence is incorrect as far as you're concerned?" "I'm not," Mr Grehan said.
Mr Grehan said he had heard these rumours, that was what he had said to her.
Mr Gallagher asked: "Did you mention Ray Burke to her?".
"Yes, I think I did, yes," said Mr Grehan.
Mr Gallagher said a short time ago he told him he did not mention Mr Burke.
"Sorry, sorry, a senior Fianna Fail politician," Mr Grehan said.
Mr Gallagher said: "So you didn't mention Ray Burke?".
"No," Mr Grehan said.
Mr Gallagher said: "So Ms Harney was incorrect?" "I'm not saying that," said Mr Grehan.
"So who's wrong?" asked Mr Gallagher.
"I don't know," Mr Grehan said.
Mr Gallagher said both could not be right.
"Sorry, beg your pardon, Ray Burke's name was mentioned," Mr Grehan said.
"Are you saying that your earlier statement was incorrect?" asked Mr Gallagher.
"It was. If I said that I apologise," Mr Grehan said.
Mr Gallagher said so Ms Harney misunderstood him when he phoned her? What he was saying was they were rumours and not true? Mr Grehan said it was.
Mr Gallagher asked: "Do you accept that the account of the telephone conversation you had with Ms Harney which she has given here as sworn evidence was an accurate account of what you said to her at the time?".
Mr Grehan replied: "She may have misunderstood me. I'm saying it was rumour and hearsay."