Eoin Butler's Q&A

Author NIAMH O'SULLIVANon Kilmainham Jail

You worked as a tour guide in Kilmainham Jail for 24 years, initially in a voluntary capacity. Have you any personal connection to the place?No. In 1982, I had family visiting from America. My father suggested taking them to Kilmainham Jail. I said, where's that? Right, he said, you're coming. There's a tiny freezing corridor down to the main prison area. Every single prisoner, from Thomas Francis Meagher to the poor nameless victims of the Famine, would have been lead that way before me. I thought, good God, I am literally walking in their footsteps. That's when it got its hooks in me.

Kilmainham is most associated with Ireland's independence struggle, but originally it functioned as a conventional prison.That's right. It opened in 1796 and, for most of the 19th century, was the county jail for Dublin. Murderers, body-snatchers and Fenian rebels were all imprisoned here, but most of the prisoners were debtors owing small amounts money.

When was it shut down?William Keane, aged 19, was the last prisoner to leave here in 1910. He was imprisoned for two weeks for using obscene language.

People will be familiar with the stories of people like James Connolly and Patrick Pearse, but I was quite taken by the account of Kathleen Clarke’s visit. Kathleen was the wife of Tom Clarke and the sister of Edward Daly, both of whom were shot for their part in the Rising. She described her visit in harrowing terms. She talked about how cold and dark the prison was and remembered the candles in jam jars that the British soldiers used for light.

She was pregnant.Yes, but she decided not to tell her husband. He was already worried enough about what would happen to the family after he was shot. She didn't want to add to that. They had no privacy and Kathleen was very stoic. She wouldn't show any emotion in front of the British soldiers. A day later, she said goodbye to her brother Ned in similar circumstance. The child was later stillborn and her sense of grief and loss is just unimaginable.

Grace Gifford, who married Joseph Mary Plunkett hours before his execution, returned here as a prisoner herself during the Civil War.The British never twigged the importance of the women. They hid guns, mended guns, distributed them in their children's prams. The Free State government was well aware of how important the women were, however, and they knew who to arrest. Grace Gifford was a wonderful artist. Visitors here will all remember the Madonna and Child she painted in her cell.

We think of the prisoners as very pious, high-minded people. Was there anything funny or profane in the graffiti they left?There's a lot of humour, but it's black humour. The republican prisoners hated Dick Mulcahy, the Free State minister, but at the same time, his sister-in-law Nellie Ryan was a prisoner on hunger strike here. Both sides in the Civil War were very severely tested, but they were doing what they thought was right for their country.

When you contrast that attitude to the attitude of some politicians, who feel public service entitles them to feather their own nests, how does it make you feel?I'm loath to mention anyone by name, but the whole ethos of certain politicians is exactly the opposite of what these people stood for. When you read the words on these walls, it really is as if the Civil War is still raging outside and the prisoners are speaking directly to you. If I could go back, I would probably say to them, think long and hard before you give up everything you have for us, because I'm really not sure that we are worthy of your sacrifice.

As a tour guide here, you brought countless school groups around the prison. How do children react to the place?I loved bringing children around. They react most to stories about children imprisoned here, but they're such honest little creatures too. I'll never forget one boy in particular. I was telling this class how Joseph Mary Plunkett married his girlfriend in the prison chapel shortly before he was shot. And this little boy, who sounded disgusted, asked, "What did he do that for?"