In 1988, Mr George Redmond, then an assistant Dublin city and county manager, suggested there was an agreement that he would get 10 per cent of any saving on a levy involving a planning application by the Murphy group, the tribunal heard.
Mr James Gogarty told the tribunal that planning permission was about to run out on lands owned by the Murphy group and there was concern that on reapplication the levy, which was £122,000, could be doubled. Mr Redmond had drafted a letter for it to send to Dublin County Council signed by Mr Gogarty. Mr Gogarty said he had first met Mr Redmond with Mr Liam Conroy, a Murphy group executive, in 1984 at the Gaiety Theatre, which was being refurbished. He next met Mr Redmond in May 1988. Mr Joe Murphy snr was concerned about his lands at Forest Road, Swords. Planning permission had originally been granted by the county council, seemingly, in the early 1980s and was appealed because of objections by residents and other interested parties.
The planning permission was granted in June 1983 but it expired in June 1988, Mr Gogarty said. Mr Murphy was concerned about the problems if planning permission ran out. There were a number of options, one being that they could make another formal application for planning permission. Mr Murphy told him Mr Conroy had been dealing with this. Mr Murphy was very involved at this stage and was commuting between Dublin, London and Guernsey. Mr Conroy had been dealing with Mr Redmond about these issues and wanted to update them. Mr Gogarty was told there was a builder from London, Mr Michael Bailey, who had a good relationship with Mr Redmond. He would set up a meeting for him with Mr Redmond to negotiate on how to approach the planning problem. Mr Gogarty said Mr Bailey rang him and they met in Santry in the offices of Joseph Murphy Structural Engineering. Mr Bailey said Mr Redmond would meet him the day after in the county council offices in O'Connell Street.
Mr John Gallagher SC, for the tribunal, said the lands had planning permission granted in 1983 on appeal to An Bord Pleanala. This was due to expire on June 23rd, 1988. Mr Gogarty said Mr Murphy was concerned that if it ran out he was in danger of not reapplying in time and there would be a possible increase in service charges. The service charge was £122,000 in the early 1980s. No houses had been built on the land at that time. Mr Gogarty said he presented himself at the county council offices the next day. He was ushered into Mr Redmond's office, a big office. Mr Redmond had nobody with him. Mr Redmond said he was expecting him and had had a word with Mr Bailey. Mr Gogarty said he had told him the situation and that he was taking instructions from Mr Murphy and asked whether he had found out any information about Forest Road. Mr Gogarty said he said to Mr Redmond that Mr Murphy understood he (Mr Redmond) had been talking to Mr Conroy about the planning permission and Mr Redmond said he had. Mr Gogarty told Mr Redmond that Mr Conroy was leaving the group and Mr Redmond asked why. He had told him there was a change in management structure and Mr Murphy was more active in the group. "He said he would like to meet Mr Murphy, he had never met him and said he would like to meet him to clarify his position, because he understood he had some agreement with Mr Conroy that he (Mr Redmond) was going to come into the group as a consultant," he said. Mr Gogarty had said he did not know anything about that.
Mr Redmond said then he had discussed the matter several times with Mr Conroy "and had devised, or some word like `devised', a mechanism whereby he could overcome his problems on the Forest Road lands by following his advice".
"I think at that time he (Mr Redmond) asked me had we any painters to do a bit of a job on his house. I said no, we didn't employ any painters direct," said Mr Gogarty. The meeting lasted about 20 minutes. Mr Redmond said the Baileys had a very good reputation with the county council and he could recommend them. The meeting ended with Mr Gogarty saying he would get in touch with Mr Murphy. Mr Gogarty said he told Mr Murphy and filled him in. A few days later, Mr Murphy said he should take it up with Mr Redmond and that Mr Joe Murphy jnr would come along to the meeting. He met Mr Redmond shortly after that with Mr Murphy jnr.
The meeting was in the same office. He introduced Mr Murphy to Mr Redmond and the meeting developed along the same lines as before on the restructuring of the group and the concerns about Forest Road. Mr Redmond said he had discussions with Mr Conroy.
Mr Redmond said he had drafted a letter to send to the county council by Grafton Construction Company, referring to the fact that the planning permission was about to run out and undertaking to pay the levies as they were in 1982/83 and on that basis asking the county council to extend the availability of the services for some extra time. Mr Redmond gave that letter to Mr Murphy jnr and they left. Later, Mr Gogarty said he gave the letter to Mr Denis McArdle, solicitor, and it was typed and sent. It was identical to the draft letter furnished by Mr Redmond. Mr Gogarty said he signed the letter but never took a copy. It was dated May 10th, 1988. Mr Gogarty then said he had omitted something earlier: "That at that meeting with Mr Redmond he referred to the danger, the possibility that in a new formal application, that these levies would be more than doubled and that he also had an agreement with Mr Conroy that he'd get 10 per cent of the sale between that sum and what he reckoned would have been more than double, under a new form of planning permission." It was the first time that had been mentioned. Mr Gallagher asked if he was clear on what was said. Mr Gogarty replied he was 100 per cent clear that that was mentioned because the initial meeting was only about 20 minutes. Asked what the response was that Mr Redmond would get 10 per cent of any savings, Mr Gogarty said: "Junior said he'd talk to his father about it." Mr Gallagher asked if he could tell them what happened after that.
Mr Gogarty said that, actually, he could not. He knew no more about it. He knew that Mr McArdle told him he got a good response from the council and they were going to extended the services for two years.