Johnson sees O'Driscoll as Lions captain

Richard Gillis talks to former England captain Martin Johnson, who says he will not come out of international retirement to lead the 2005 Lions

Two questions hang over every interview given by Martin Johnson this season. The first is whether he will come out of international retirement to captain the British and Irish Lions squad to tour New Zealand next summer. The follow-up asks, if he does not lead out the side for the first test in Christchurch on June 25th, then who will?

Sitting in a hospitality suite overlooking Leicester Tigers' Welford Road ground, the two-time Lions captain (1997 and 2001) is clear on both issues. His answers are "no" and "Brian O'Driscoll", respectively.

However, despite his denials about his own involvement, either as a player or as a member of the coaching staff, it is easy to see why rumours persist. Johnson's version of "no" is the type favoured by aspiring politicians when asked whether they covet the job of Taoiseach.

"At the start of the year, when I retired from international rugby I never had any ambitions to go on the Lions tour," he says. "It wasn't in my thoughts or plans and that hasn't really changed."

Johnson feels the speculation is fuelled by England's relatively poor results since his retirement.

"If I had gone and England had kept on winning, then no one would have talked about me again." he says. "As soon as they lost there was the inevitable stuff about how it would have been different had Johnson been there. Hopefully it will all go away."

He was amused to turn on Teletext to see even the opinion of a Leicester team-mate, Irish international Geordan Murphy, had been sought on the subject.

"Geordan was quoted as saying 'I spoke to Martin and he's not going'," says Johnson, with a trademark half smile. "The headline was 'Murphy rules Johnson out'."

His nomination of O'Driscoll as Lions captain is in part based on a positive feeling toward the chances of Ireland in this year's Six Nations Championship. The Six Nations, with the Heineken European Cup, provide the key platforms for players to make their claims for inclusion. A process Johnson describes as wide open.

"There's no one in a better position to be Lions captain than Brian O'Driscoll," he says. "Jonny Wilkinson now has the England job so he will be a contender. But I can see eight or nine Irish guys who could go on the tour.

"This year is as good a chance as they will have to win the Grand Slam. This is the best Irish team I've ever played against. We lost to the Irish in '94, which wasn't a bad team but they had no consistency, which has always seemed to be their problem. They would play very well at home and then go away and lose.

"They had a Grand Slam chance in 2003 and have much the same team but better. Because of (Gordon) D'Arcy coming in they have added an extra dimension, taking the pressure off O'Driscoll as the main creative force. They also have both France and England in Dublin, which is a big factor."

It is clear Johnson feels an affinity with the ethos of the Lions, which he describes fondly as one of the quirks of the game.

"There is still a rare mystique about the whole thing, a one-off." he says recalling the Lions tour to South Africa in 1997. At that time, received wisdom suggested such an anomaly would not survive the professional era. The World Cup had grown in significance and clubs were reluctant to release their players for Lions duty.

"When we won they wanted us to go every two years," he says of the same media pundits who predicted its demise. "By 2001 in Australia it was very noticeable how much more commercial it had become in terms of sponsorship and the way it was managed."

And New Zealand 2005 will be bigger still. For Johnson the All Blacks retain a special place in his life; he very nearly was one himself, representing New Zealand at under-19 level against John Eales's young Australia team. His wife, Kay, is from the country and he is a regular visitor. He wonders whether it can cope with the influx of rugby fans next year.

"They are talking of putting ships in the harbour at Wellington and people are flying in from Australia for the game and flying out again. It's going to be a huge event."

Johnson's successor as England captain was always going to face a daunting task. The job is made more difficult, however, by the break-up of the core of the World Cup-winning team.

Wilkinson, with new coach Andy Robinson, may have as few as six of the side that played in the final in Sydney available for selection for this autumn's internationals against the Southern Hemisphere teams. This at a time when expectations of success have been heightened both among core rugby fans and among those attracted to the game more recently.

"When England lost to Ireland at Twickenham earlier this year, I had a bad feeling about what was going to happen," says Johnson, who was watching from the stand.

"Having won the first two games of the championship, if someone had said England would win this game by a last-minute drop goal, England fans would have been disappointed. Win the World Cup by a drop goal and it's the greatest game of rugby they have ever watched.

"Likewise, when we went to Dublin in 2003 trying to win a Grand Slam. We had previously lost the last game of the season in '99, 2000 and 2001, all of them trying to win a Grand Slam and failing each time.

"For us to win by a point, or a last-minute drop goal, would have been a success. Everyone would have been happy. As it turned out, we played well and scored 40 points."

Johnson's rugby philosophy would not allow such external pressures to impact on the day-to-day business of winning. His take on life can be neatly summed up by his occasional reference to concentrating on "the little things to achieve the big things".

And, one of the next "little things" on Johnson's list is Leicester's opening match against Italian side Calvisano in the European Cup, a tournament he feels has liberated the club game from the narrow confines of the domestic competitions.

"It's refreshing to look at the fixture list and see who we might be playing, whether it's Stade Francais or Leinster."

This season's draw takes the Tigers to southern France.

"We will take several coachloads of supporters down to Biarritz - that's 20 hours in a bus just to watch the game and come back."

The camaraderie between players and fans is one of the features of rugby Johnson will miss most whenever it is he chooses to end his playing career. He has had talks with the club to clarify his future, and given his wealth of knowledge of the game and the respect he commands, it seems inconceivable he will be lost to the sport.

"I'm curious about coaching," he says.

But where and when remains to be seen.