Ahern defends regional plan in heated debate

The Taoiseach strongly defended the Government's regionalisation proposals during heated exchanges with the Opposition.

"If we do not have regionalisation, with Objective 1 in transition, which is the only thing we can have because we are 104 per cent of GDP for the entire country, we will not be able to use higher State aid in any part of the country," Mr Ahern said.

Some opposition deputies referred to the unrest about the proposals within Fianna Fail. Referring to a public statement issued by the Minister of State for Education, Mr Willie O'Dea, on the issue, the Fine Gael leader, Mr John Bruton, remarked: "Could I ask the Taoiseach if Deputy Willie O'Dea is continuing as a Minister of State in the Government, or has he become a member of the Opposition? We obviously now have two supernumerary Ministers of State, one who is running for Europe and the other who is running away from Europe."

Mr Bruton asked the Taoiseach to outline the Government's proposals to make orders under the Local Government Act of 1991, and to amend it, to reconstitute Cork as a single region on its own or to attach it to another region, and to constitute a new region in the mid-west to exclude Clare.

He asked the Taoiseach if the position of those counties, and their regional governance, was to be clarified quickly by legislation.

"If it is not going to be clarified by legislation, is the Government not going to be unconvincing in Brussels in the sense that if it has not made its own legislative provisions for new regions domestically, it can hardly make a convincing case in Brussels?"

Mr Ahern said it was not envisaged that primary legislation would be necessary, but if it was required it would be introduced. The Labour leader, Mr Ruairi Quinn, said his party was in favour of full and proper regionalisation. "Our difficulty is we do not know what the Government is actually proposing."

He suggested the Government's position would be strengthened if there were clear and concrete proposals for regionalisation in legislative form which would be discussed by the Dail.

Mr Ahern said the model being used by the Department of Finance, at this stage, prior to formal discussions with Eurostat, did not require primary legislation. Anything which had happened so far was preliminary, he added. He said Ireland was following precisely the same model as Portugal and the UK. He could not say if the model would be accepted. "If it is, we can do it by regulation. If it is not, we could need primary legislation . . .

"The other fact which I have to point out is this: the fact that the Government has decided this may not carry any weight with Eurostat, so we may be back here with a different arrangement . . ."

Mr Bruton said: "My God, this is some admission."

Mr Ahern said: "These issues are based on statistical information . . . Unfortunately, you clearly, deputy, do not understand that." The Democratic Left leader, Mr Proinsias De Rossa, said the test of whether the Government's proposal was justified was whether such a region would be created based on the State's resources and understanding of the needs of the Irish people. "The region which is being proposed for Objective 1 is clearly an artificial region." He added that there was poverty, disadvantage and marginalisation in every county, rural and urban, in the State.

Mr Ahern said the regionalisation issue was being looked at in the wider context of local government. The current emphasis was on developing local government at county and sub-county level. Practically every country in the EU had gone down, in one form or another, the regionalisation route.

He said the proposal made no difference to 98 per cent of social expenditure. The programmes in place would remain.

Mr Bruton asked if the Taoiseach saw a risk that the Government would appear "faintly ridiculous" because of its indecision on the issue over many months. "Appearing ridiculous is the worst possible thing a sovereign State can place itself in."

Mr Quinn suggested the Government should publish a White Paper setting out its case.