Hectic life in politics, busy life after

VB: Is your 75th birthday a significant milestone for you?

GF: Not really, but others seem to think it is.

VB: How are you going to celebrate the birthday?

GF: We're having a party for friends at home and some friends associated with Fine Gael are organising a dinner event which is to be a cross-party occasion.

VB: Did you think you'd live this long?

GF: Yes. I always thought I'd have a fair chance of reaching the 21st century, and I hoped Joan would too.

VB: Do you fear death? Would you mind if you were told you were going to die soon?

GF: You would always mind if you were told it was coming soon, I suppose. The trouble about having a family is you're always curious to know what is going to happen them all. You're wondering how things will turn out for them, so there is never a good moment to leave.

VB: Do you wonder about the afterlife? What do you think happens?

GF: I'll find out in due course.

VB: You think so?

GF: Well either you find out, or you don't find out.

VB: Do you believe in God?

GF: Yes. But as one gets on in life, there are doubts. But I comfort myself with the thought that the universe is such an extraordinary phenomenon that it can hardly have happened by accident. Scientists now believe that because the universe is so unique, capable of generating life, that the only alternative to there being a creator is that there must exist an infinity of universes, one of which was bound to be the kind of one on which life can arise - and that seems a rather far-fetched hypothesis.

VB: Are you lonely nowadays? Did you find the transition to being without Joan difficult?

GF: Yes, very difficult indeed, but I have an enormously supportive family. I have three children and 10 grandchildren, and I see a lot of them all the time, which makes a very big difference. And I've had the opportunity of coming here to live next door to Mary [his daughter]. I would have found it very difficult to go out and live on my own somewhere. I would have found that impossible.

VB: What are your sources of income now?

GF: Obviously I have a pension from my time in politics and apart from that I earn income from my journalism, lecturing, being a director, and occasional consultancies.

VB: Are you still in debt?

GF: No, apart from an occasional overdraft and a sizeable mortgage [on his house].

VB: What is your work schedule nowadays?

GF: It fluctuates a fair bit. Sometimes it's very hectic - at the extreme up to 85 hours in a week, but that would be very unusual. Most of the year it's probably about 50-60 hours, but sometimes it falls below that.

VB: What stage of your life had you had the most fun?

GF: In terms of work, in Aer Lingus in the 50s; in UCD in the 60s; and in Foreign Affairs. Foreign Affairs in the 70s. I suppose that was the highlight, because I became Foreign Minister right at the time that we joined the European Community, about which I had been lecturing for a dozen years previously, and I had the opportunity to develop our European policy and to establish our presence there.

VB: Was your time as Taoiseach fun?

GF: No, although there was the camaraderie of colleagues in government. But because of the economic circumstances we were in, domestic government in my time was mainly about cutting expenditure and raising taxes, and that was no fun.

VB: In your lectures abroad about Ireland's economic success, what do you say are the reasons for that success?

GF: Well, a combination of things. One thing is that, contrary to what many people think, our political system has worked remarkably well. From the mid50s onwards, certain politicians have taken initiatives, sometimes quite revolutionary ones, and these have been sustained by every successive government. This started with the reversal in the 1950s of the policy of protectionism.

That carried on into education, where again successive governments followed through on the educational revolution started by Donogh O'Malley.

And it is also true of the tackling of our financial difficulties in the 80s. After we [his government of 1982-87] took on the financial crisis we had inherited, that was carried on by the government that came after [led by Charles Haughey with Ray MacSharry as Minister for Finance].

Then of course there has been our membership of the European Union. Membership ended the exploitation [through the British cheap food policy] of Irish agriculture, but in the long run the importance [of membership] was above all in the opening of markets which enabled us to use our independence to operate a tax system and an industrial policy of our own which has attracted industry here on a massive scale.

VB: What do you tell your audiences is going to happen now?

GF: Well, our economy will wind down certainly. Whether it winds down gently or not remains to be seen. It's an open question. We may be lucky and we may come through it successfully. But there are many more risks about the process than there need have been, because of Government policies failing to take account of the fact that when you reach full employment you need quite different policies from those you needed in order to create full employment.

VB: It's really a remarkable period [the last eight years] in Irish history right now. Nothing like it has happened ever previously here.

GF: Nor, I think in any part of Europe in history either, apart from the recovery in Germany, Italy and Greece just after the war. Otherwise there has been no such sustained period of economic growth on that scale anywhere in Europe in the whole of European history as far as I know.

VB: Side by side with this economic success has been the resolution of the Northern Ireland problem. Did you envisage that happening?

GF: I worked for it, planned for it, hoped for it, and occasionally despaired of it, but it came about.

VB: What are you proud to have done in your life?

GF: Proud isn't the word. I was extraordinarily lucky to have been able to go into politics. And extraordinarily lucky in the opportunities I had before that, to learn how the system works [through his work as an economist and consultant].

VB: Do you regret then that you didn't stand for the Dail earlier, say in 1965?

GF: No. In fact, I found the Senate very valuable [Having opted not to stand for the Dail in 1965 he decided afterwards to contest the Seanad elections.] The atmosphere in the Senate is less party-political and not particularly partisan. It was an easier way for someone like me to enter politics.

Because of the very small, and not very strong, Fine Gael front bench there at the time, I found myself handling an enormous numbers of topics. There were occasions in July each year when I was the only member of the front bench available to handle things. I once dealt with seven Bills in one day, I remember. That gave me a round of experience that at the time you wouldn't have got in the Dail. So it was a good way for me to enter politics. By the time I stood for election to the Dail in 1969, I knew much more about politics - I was more realistic, better prepared for the Dail and how it works.

VB: You used to speak at great length there. Was your longest speech ever delivered in the Senate or the Dail?

GF: I'm not sure. I once spoke on education in the Dail - that was my shadow portfolio - and I know there were 41 issues I felt I had to deal with. With a certain lack of sensitivity perhaps, I proceeded to deal with them all, at considerable length. My longest speech was, I think, five hours.

VB: That's a terrible infliction on the people that you were speaking to.

GF: I wouldn't say that. There was one [speech] that extended over six weeks and [was delivered in] three bits. That wasn't too bad.

VB: What do you regret?

GF: I think I could have handled some things better in government as Taoiseach. I think the complaints of Cabinet meetings going on forever has validity. The problem was that I couldn't force a decision that might lead to a breakdown, so one had to go on at great length and keep together for a long time in order to get a decision. But I probably could have handled that somewhat better. However, I think that, together, Dick Spring and I managed the government reasonably well in what were very difficult circumstances.

VB: Dick Spring was almost new to politics when he became Tanaiste in November 1982.

GF: He was very good. I found him excellent.

VB: Did you like him personally?

GF: Oh, yes. Very much. I had, and have, great respect for him.

VB: Who was your best friend in politics?

GF: Alexis Fitzgerald. After entering government he was my closest political friend, whom I brought in as adviser to the Cabinet in 1981, which had never been done before. A lot of people didn't like that innovation. I felt that, in any event on my first time as Taoiseach, I needed somebody with his wisdom and experience. I had enormous respect for him.

VB: Among elected politicians, who was your best friend?

GF: Well, you know, the people I was closest to were, I suppose, Jim Dooge, [who was Minister for Foreign Affairs briefly in the 1981-82 government - he was appointed from the Senate] and Tom O'Higgins [former Fine Gael TD, minister and presidential candidate, former Chief Justice and member of the European Court of Justice] - and at an earlier period Declan Costello.

VB: Were you disappointed that Declan Costello went to the High Court in '76?

GF: Yes. I was, but he had left politics before coming back in again [he had not been in the Dail in the 1969-73 period] and I think he found politics difficult. But when he and Tom O'Higgins both left, that certainly changed things. It meant that the two people I was politically closest to were gone and when it came to the leadership issue [in 1977], it meant that they were no longer available. Both of them would have been better equipped to be leader than I. VB: You had a tremendous electoral success in '83 and then an electoral disaster in '87. The party has never really recovered from that?

GF: True. We were given the task of tackling an extraordinary crisis. We brought inflation down from 25 per cent to 3 per cent, eliminated a huge external payments deficit, got rid of a huge amount of useless capital spending, managed to reduce current spending somewhat, and halved the borrowing rate we had faced when we took office in June 1981. You can't do all those kind of things and end up popular. I never had any illusions that we were likely to be re-elected.

VB: What the succeeding government, led by Charlie Haughey, did, was crucial to the economic success we are now enjoying.

GF: Oh, it was indeed. If they hadn't completed the task we'd brought so far, the country would have been in a mess.

VB: Is there anything about Charlie Haughey that you admire?

GF: He was a very good minister. There's no doubt about his ability. He was a very good Minister for Justice. He was a good Minister for Finance. Anything he took on he handled very competently, there's no doubt about that. VB: Have you any sympathy for him now going through this ordeal at the Moriarty tribunal at this stage of his life?

GF: You couldn't not have sympathy. Given this state of health and his age, to be going through this is very tough indeed.

VB: Do you think it's fair to put him through it at this stage?

GF: I think it's necessary, and sometimes things that are necessary don't seem very fair.

VB: What good will come of this?

GF: Truth. It's very important.

VB: But don't we know the truth now?

GF: No. We don't. We know that payments were made. We don't know what if anything was done in return for those payments.

VB: What is the point of knowing?

GF: I think it's very important. I think that if one finds anything improper in government, then the only way to prevent the gradual erosion of the democratic system is to confront that and expose what has gone on. Otherwise, the system would be totally undermined. Look how alienated from politics many voters are already.

VB: What is so bad about politicians getting money, when, it seems it is OK for political parties to get money? Isn't it worse to buy a whole group of politicians than to buy just one?

GF: First of all, politicians should never personally benefit from politics in any secret way. They have a salary, expenses, all the rest of it . . .

VB: They all benefit personally from monies given to their political parties for it helps them get into office.

GF: Nobody should personally benefit. Nobody should personally benefit from being in politics, other than through what they are paid as politicians.

VB: Going back to Fine Gael, the party never recovered from the electoral calamity in 1987 under your leadership.

GF: I did a calculation of the effect of the Progressive Democrats in that election and, on the basis of an analysis of the transfers, it seems that Fine Gael would have got 36.5 per cent of the vote [in 1987] had it not been for the PDs. I think it is extraordinary that we lost so little other than to the PDs in 1987. I had been sure that we'd do a lot more.

VB: Thank you very much and happy birthday.

GF: I thought this interview was going to be non-political!

I think that if one finds anything improper in government, then the only way to prevent the gradual erosion of the democratic system is to confront that and expose what has gone on. Otherwise, the system would be totally undermined