On The Record

The latest lost generation

November 3, 2009 @ 3:30 pm | by Jim Carroll

Many of you will have already read Shane Fitzgerald’s opinion piece about increasing numbers of Irish folks, like himself, who are leaving Ireland for better prospects abroad. To be honest, you probably didn’t need his article to know that emigration is back with a vengeance.

Fitzgerald said he felt “cheated” after spending three years studying for an economics and sociology degree and not finding a job at the end of his studies. “I wouldn’t go as far as to say that I was on a promise with the Government”, he wrote, “but I was led to believe I would be getting more action than this once I graduated. I realised I wasn’t going to get a decent job anytime soon and it became clear that the only boom taking place was in my overdraft account.”

A lot of people agreed with his point of view and the article received a good slew of comments - yesterday’s paper had a selection of them. Most readers echoed Fitzgerald’s point of view and said they too were forced to move away or were planning a move abroad. Nearly to a man and woman, everything was blamed on the current Fianna Fail/Green Party government (one poster went to far as to blame it on “the Government, banks, business, police, law, and even the Catholic Church” to make sure all corners were covered).

There will always be people willing to compile a blame report of this sort because emigration remains a hugely emotive subject in the Irish psyche. There can’t be a household in the land which hasn’t had some family members going abroad to find work or, in recent years, advance their career.

Even after the huge emigration surge of 1980s (which reminded older folks of the one in the 1950s), there were still thousands of Irish people taking the boat or plane out of here for a myriad of reasons. Many of the people I know who’ve left in the last 12 months did so because they wanted to work in areas or at a level in their industry which was just not possible in Ireland. They wanted to avail of opportunities to live and work elsewhere and have a range of experiences which they just couldn’t get in Ireland. Staying here, regardless of the economic situation, was not going to keep their brains and enthusiasm levels engaged. They were always going to go. They wanted to go. I know myself that I headed to London in the 1990s because I wanted the kind of music and media industry experience I just couldn’t get here at that time.

However, Fitzgerald is really writing for and about the new wave of emigrants who are leaving here because they just can’t find any work. They’re different to those who were happy to go of their own volition. These involuntary emigrants wanted to stay in Ireland, work in Ireland and live in Ireland, but found that they couldn’t do any of the above due to the current economic shit-storm. Sure, there’s economic doom and gloom elsewhere, but it doesn’t seem as bad, prolonged or unyielding as the Irish mess so they’ll take their chances elsewhere.

For more on why this is happening, see a report in today’s paper from a meeting of the Dublin Economic Workshop. David Blanchflower, a professor of economics at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire, focused on how “those who have really been hurt in this recession have turned out to be the young”. With youth unemployment currently standing at 27.6 per cent in Ireland, it’s no wonder so many are heading away.

If you needed even more reasons for the exodus, Elaine Byrne paints a fairly depressing picture of the auld sod in her column today: “this is an Ireland that gathers in her thousands to the shrine church in Knock on the say-so of a clairvoyant, in the desperate hope of a miracle, of anything. An Ireland that worships tree-stumps in Rathkeale. An Ireland that has had a 43 per cent increase in the numbers taking their own lives during the first three months of this year. An Ireland that is preparing to strike and polarise itself even further. An Ireland that seeks to abolish democratic institutions.”

But, as Byrne notes, “negativity will not save us”. Repeating over and over again that things are bad is not going to solve anything. Yes, emigration has many ramifications for both the individual and the society which remains behind, but there are also positives as well as the over-riding negatives.

As happened in the 1950s and 1980s, there will be just as many bright sparks who will stay here, stick it out and put their own projects into play despite “the Government, banks, business, police, law, and even the Catholic Church”. They will persevere with their plans because they have the ideas, the determination and the ambition to do so. Over the last few months, I’ve met a huge range of people who’re very happy to stay here and make the most of every opportunity this recession brings. And, as before, some of those who left will come back with new ideas, fresh thinking and a desire to contribute.

It’s really up to the latest lost generation to decide if they want in or if they want out. Either way, dropping that sense of entitlement would be a good start.

61 Comments »

November 3, 2009
3:55 pm

Either way, dropping that sense of entitlement would be a good start.

Nail on the head, and I would extend accepting some personal responsibility into that equation.

Yep, the government messed up gloriously and are political Jedwards in their ability to hang on against the odds. The bankers at the top levels need to be brought to account for their fudging of the situation. But at the same time, no one forced people onto the property ladder at the height of the property boom.

I remember sometime either earlier this year or last when Batt O’Keeffe was confronted by an angry teacher in her mid-twenties who remonstrated with him that after taxes and her high mortgage repayments she only has x amount a week. As much as I dislike FF, how the hell can she blame Battman for her mortgage? People need to realise that buying a house is an INVESTMENT - and like any other, is a gamble.

Comment by Joe

November 3, 2009
4:03 pm

At last, a sane piece in the Irish Times about emigration. We’re probably well rid of those who are leaving banging on about being “on a promise” for a job or life here as they get on the plane. How about actually contributing rather than moaning?

Comment by Mary Smyth

November 3, 2009
4:03 pm

Very good piece which says a lot of what I’ve been muttering since that piece by Shane Fitzgerald appeared last week. I’m one of those who stuck around in the 1980s and when I see younger colleagues and friends blaming everyone for their troubles, I remember how easy it would have been to leave in the 1980s, head to America and bad-mouth Ireland from there. Instead I stuck around and contributed to this country. That’s what’s needed now. Because, as you say, repeating over and over again that things are bad is not going to solve anything. And thinking the government has to fix things for you is also not to help you. In a way, goodbye and good luck to those who leave but stop with the “woe is me” shite.

Comment by Tom

November 3, 2009
4:08 pm

“Fitzgerald said he felt “cheated” after spending three years studying for an economics and sociology degree and not finding a job at the end of his studies.”

Did three year arts degrees guarantee good jobs before the recession? That’s not what my careers teacher told me anyway. I didn’t have a direct line to the government though.

Comment by Karl

November 3, 2009
4:08 pm

There is a sense of entitlement emanating from Fitzgerald’s column and the subequent letter writers. It was a bit of whinge ‘I’ve finished college, where’s my job.’

Huge sympathy for people who are forced to emigrate. But the idea that you’d get a job straight out from college is a new one on me.

Ireland isn’t a disaster as Fitzgerald contents. Telling everyone else to leave because you have to? That’s the fighting spirit eh?

Not sure I agree with any of Elaine Byrne’s piece. The Sentate is hardly democratic considering that I and most of the country has no say in it.

Then she falls into the ‘we’re Irish, we’re gas craic’ at the end.

“And then there’s that legendary sense of humour the Irish are famous for, which might even win us that most British of institutions, the X-Factor.”

Seeing as Irish people can’t vote in a talent contest in another country, I fail to see how two dancing eejits will win ‘us’ the X factor based on our sense of humour.

I remember that school teacher complaining about how her mortgage. Unbelievable.

Comment by nerraw

November 3, 2009
4:12 pm

It would be interesting to know the financial circumstances of those emigrating and whether they were different to those who left during the eighties. I would guess that some of the people who are emigrating now have taken some sort of package and can afford to either travel for a while or start up elsewhere. In other words, they are not just emigrating out of hopelessness. On the other hand there are many people entering this recession with heavy debts around their necks who couldn’t leave even if they wanted to.

Of course the huge elephant in the room throughout the internecine public debate about our financial situation is that there will surely be fewer self-released indie albums over the next few years. What would the IMF say about THAT!!??!!

Comment by Mumblin' Deaf Ro

November 3, 2009
4:21 pm

Joe,

“People need to realise that buying a house is an INVESTMENT - and like any other, is a gamble”

Ah, the kind of logic that gets another few thousand packing….

Comment by brian

November 3, 2009
4:54 pm

I did not leave Ireland because the weather was better abroad, but general opportunities are/were greater.

Needless to say I’m working…

Comment by Leigh O'Gorman

November 3, 2009
5:05 pm

Leigh - And I’m sure there are many thousands who have done the same as you - as I point out above in the fifth paragraph, I’m one of them. However, it does seem as if some (both recent and not so recent) emigrants have a couple of chips on their shoulder and feel this country somehow owed them a living. Did you feel like that when you left?

Comment by Jim Carroll

10.

November 3, 2009
5:06 pm

As someone involved with vulnerable long-term Irish emigrants in London I’m appalled by the attitude and sense of entitlement portrayed by Shane Fitzsimons. Don’t get me wrong it is a terrible thing for someone to be or feel forced to leave behind friends and family but child, you don’t know you’ve been born.

You’ve benefitted from an excellent and expensive education courtesy of the Irish taxpayer, who must now forego any hope of an immediate return either fiscally or otherwise.

As you’ve said you did not grow up in the 1980’s and have no idea just how bleak that period was. Instead you grown up in an age of unbelievably cheap airtravel which means it is potentially faster and cheaper to get from London to Dublin than an equivalent journey from Cork. You live in an age of instant and again cheap communication. The internet, mobiles, video calls, and email mean that home is virtually at your fingertips, whether it’s reading the Irish Times, watching the RTE news or reading your nephew a bedtime story.

Not to mention the racism, abuse and discrimination you do not have to endure, as those before you did.

I don’t mean to be blase about Shane’s plight, it’s a terrible situation but it could be a whole lot worse.

Comment by Gus Fitz

11.

November 3, 2009
5:38 pm

I think Jim gets it right by mentioning the sense of entitlement.

I feel really sorry for people who bought property way over the odds or clocked up giant debts, but that’s a choice too. The government didn’t put a gun to anyone’s head telling them to splurge in Dundrum Town Centre or buy a one bed apartment for €350,000, or start investing in property abroad. Those were personal choices, even if the climate at the time really encouraged people to make them. In the current debate about how fucked we are, it’s rare that anyone mentions personal responsibility. I have plenty of friends who clocked up massive debts purely through faffing around. And it’s their own fault.

Of course, this government is a complete fucking joke, and most of them are totally incompetent and absolutely unqualified to rescue our dire economic situation. But not EVERYTHING can be blamed on their actions. We have to look at how we all behaved during the boom years.

There’s also another side to emigration that isn’t talked about enough. I know a fair few people who went to London and elsewhere over the past year or so and have returned upon realising that there are even fewer opportunities in bigger cities than there are in Dublin, and at least if you stay, you have some sort of support network. Because of that, there are loads of creative things happening here, and many people are doing things they always wanted to do (albeit for very little monetary reward) but were unable to because of the constraints of a 9 to 5. You can exist on the dole if you don’t have a family or debts. It’s not easy, but we actually have a pretty generous social welfare structure in this country (well, for the time being.)

Sometimes listening to people rant and rave at the government regarding the fact that they’re broke reminds me of students protesting about the removal of grants saying that they can’t afford to buy books, or go to the doctor, or have three meals a day. Yet they always seem to be able to afford going out on the total lash with that meagre stipend.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you value in life. If everything is about making money for yourself to buy shit you don’t need, then yes, you’re screwed now because that excess income isn’t there.

I think if you worked in a job that there are no opportunities for here anymore and there are elsewhere, it makes sense to go where you can work, but pissing and moaning about it isn’t exactly constructive, nor is telling everyone to abandon the country.

This government isn’t up to making Ireland into a better place at the moment, but that doesn’t mean everyone should throw in the towel. It means, in fact, that it’s up to us to do it.

Comment by unarocks

12.

November 3, 2009
5:58 pm

it might be because i only get internet in work and haven’t been able to see any of emmigrants moaning about their troubles … but wow these are some amazingly callous remarks.

You’d think that someone who’d been forced into a situation where they had to emmigrate would be shown a little more sympathy.

Its not exactly new to any of us expats that people had to emmigrate before.

and saying that we don’t have as much to complain about is ridiculous. not with the government actively encouraging us to leave.

some really mature comments guys, well done.

Comment by tycho

13.

November 3, 2009
6:03 pm

not with the government actively encouraging us to leave

tycho - was i the only one who missed that radio ad/TV ad/Tweet/Facebook update/blog post/mailout/text/phone call/flyer?

Comment by Jim Carroll

14.

November 3, 2009
6:10 pm

Jim,
No chips here Jim, but a belief that there was little I could achieve or “do” in Ireland (if you know what I mean). Right now, all I have is a desire to get things done.

At the same time, no one should be entitled to a job; it - like most things in life - need to be earned and this apparent sense of entitlement has, on occasion, led to poor deals and decisions being made, which has in turn badly affected many people down the line.

Comment by Leigh O'Gorman

15.

November 3, 2009
6:13 pm

jim try getting on the dole right now.

I was waiting four months and was told it would be another 5 weeks at least.

then i mentioned that i was leaving the country next week. The woman i was dealing with signed the peice of paper in front of me.
go figure.

Comment by tycho

16.

November 3, 2009
6:16 pm

Leigh - apologies, I didn’t mean you had chips on your shoulder. Just re-read my comment above and that inference could have been taken from what I wrote.

That’s it, in a nutshell. It seems to me that a “sense of entitlement” is what has caused so much of the negativity which abounds at present.

Comment by Jim Carroll

17.

November 3, 2009
6:21 pm

another reason for my earlier hyperbole was that I’d just read this;

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/10/26/200910260046.asp

yes thats right. the ambassodor to korea actually talking about how irish emmigration patterns are something that koreans can learn from the irish people ….

Comment by tycho

18.

November 3, 2009
6:31 pm

Entitlement is right. Sure I graduated myself in 2004 with a 4 year engineering degree and the boom in full effect. Come Christmas I was still working my part time sweet shop job. I don’t believe people with BAs were ever headhunted straight out of college en mass.

The government failed to manage and protect our economy. Government policy with stamp duty exemptions and mortgage relief actively heated the property boom. They also depended on capital revenues to fund operating budgets and failed utterly to regulate the financial institutions or even their own budgets. We failed ourselves for continually voting them in and allowing an opposition to exist that promised to do the exact same thing. The bankers and developers did exactly what you would expect them to do in that environment. Our representatives wholly failed us but it was our failure to enlighten ourselves and see through the crap that allowed it and still allows it.

I’ll be emigrating myself in the new year. It’s by choice though. It’s so I can get further education and professional experience that isn’t available to me here. I do feel that it’s a great time to go as I’m not going to miss the current prevalent doom and gloom mood. We’ve been exposed as a 2nd world country masquerading as a modern one and it wont do us any harm to learn a bit of humility although I’m not sure we will.

Still, it’s home and I intend to be back quite soon. Hopefully it’ll be on the upswing again but I don’t feel anything has been learned. We’re still reactive and failing to see the long term implications of actions. It’s fix the mess after it happens and go for the short gains again. Property tax should have replaced stamp duty a decade ago, bring house prices back nearer a realistic value and ensure a sustained revenue stream. A good proactive measure that would most likely have spelt political suicide then but as a reactive measure now seems necessary once it’s real value is lost.

Foolishly I took a gamble a few years ago. Got a mortgage I could well afford and paid well under market value for a home. I knew well that it was still well overpriced and that the bubble could only burst, but took the gamble and lost. Woe is me but that mistake was all mine. Fortunately I haven’t many others anywhere near that magnitude.

I’m looking forward to a break from this gloomy, dull rock I call home.

Comment by Bold Lump

19.

November 3, 2009
6:59 pm

the only real entitlement we have is the solidarity of being citizens of a republic, which means that it should be a political aim for no-one to have to leave their country because of economic reasons (or social ones, equally). that’s only an aim - one we’ve fallen short of historically, but also like you say there are practical reasons why Ireland won’t be sufficient for everyone’s ambitions - and even if it’s honoured mostly in the breach it’s still a valid goal.

I’d like to put my education to use working in the civil service, unexciting as it may seem to many, but if the moratorium continues - and if the unions swap pay cuts for a reduction in staffing - then part of my ambition is being denied for the sense of entitlement of the middle-aged to maintain their incomes and tax burden. a college education isn’t an entitlement to a job, but it’s a postponement of income in preparation for a job, and hopefully a productive and fulfilling one.

Comment by gabbagabbahey

20.

November 3, 2009
7:02 pm

It’s not often a newspaper article and responses to it leave me banging my head on the table in frustration. This one does.

There has long been a divide between those who left during the 1980s and those who remained. I believe that differing view points should be respected … but there are limits. The comments by Tom and Mary are an example of the worst of this and need a reply. Tom engages in some self writes :

“I’m one of those who stuck around in the 1980s and when I see younger colleagues and friends blaming everyone for their troubles, I remember how easy it would have been to leave in the 1980s, head to America and bad-mouth Ireland from there”

Easy ? “..easy to leave…” ? “…bad-mouth Ireland from there”. A comment like this forfeits the right to be taken seriously. Since Tom was apparently oblivious of the meltdown of the 1980s I can only assume that he or his family had the financial resources to ride out the storm. Most of us ( us being those who took the “easy” way out ) did not have this option.

“Bad-mouthing” Ireland took the form of asking, with the benefit of our perspective, about whether a better way was possible - that maybe sinking 20% of the Celtic tiger into property was wise. To quote Tom himself he is talking “shite”.

And then comes Mary :

“At last, a sane piece in the Irish Times about emigration. We’re probably well rid of those who are leaving banging on about being “on a promise” for a job or life here as they get on the plane”.

Ah, sure Mary is probably right. Why would anyone question a country that manages to loose entire generations of its people on a regular basis? Kids today - sure they’re always moaning. Mary - you wouldn’t be Tom’s mother by any chance? “Hear no evil, see no evil” Irish fatalism has been largely responsible for the tottering from crisis to crises that has been Ireland during my adult life. I had hope that the Celtic Tiger would see the end of this pattern. Apparently not.

Finally, I understand the sentiments of Gus Fitz, but those of us who left earlier need not to get too wrapped up in our own history and era. I remember getting to know my late uncle in London during the 80s. He had emigrated with my aunt during the 1950s. The 1980s were a difficult time - but I was stuck by how little the emigrant experience had fundamentally changed. I am sure to my uncle I had it easy. So I would be reluctant to lecture people leaving Ireland today on how much easier it is for them.

Finally, to those espousing the need for personal responsibility, may I ask you to stop and ponder if it reasonable to reduce the problems of yet another generation to a bundle of “personal responsibility” to be heaped on the shoulder of people in their early twenties? This is as far as the concept of responsibility has advance among the mature in Ireland?

Comment by Colm

21.

November 3, 2009
7:21 pm

Great piece Jim, got to say. You couldn’t have articulated how I feel about emigration and the recession any better.

Comment by Loughlin

22.

November 3, 2009
7:29 pm

Colm @ 20

“Easy ? “..easy to leave…” ? “…bad-mouth Ireland from there”. A comment like this forfeits the right to be taken seriously. Since Tom was apparently oblivious of the meltdown of the 1980s I can only assume that he or his family had the financial resources to ride out the storm. Most of us ( us being those who took the “easy” way out ) did not have this option.”

Talk about taking the wrong end of the stick for a walk. When I said was it was easier to leave than stick around and actually try to make a go of things in this country. It sure as hell wasn’t easy here - that was a time of high taxation, few jobs, doom, gloom, depression and cuts. While we always hear the sob stories and poor mouth from those who left in the 1980s, it was not all plain sailing for those who chose to stay here and try to make this country their name.

As for your comment that “I can only assume that he or his family had the financial resources to ride out the storm”, what the hell gives you that idea?

““Bad-mouthing” Ireland took the form of asking, with the benefit of our perspective, about whether a better way was possible - that maybe sinking 20% of the Celtic tiger into property was wise. To quote Tom himself he is talking “shite”.”

What, people were bad-mouthing the Celtic Tiger in the 1980s? Before the Celtic Tiger even arrived? Wow, Colm, with hindsight like that, you should be in politics. But then, if you were, you might have to get off your arse, take the permanent frown from your face and do something for your fellow Irishmen.

Comment by Tom

23.

November 3, 2009
7:49 pm

Colm @ 20 above strikes me as your typical bitter Irish emigrant who blames the fact that he is far from Marietta biscuits and Barrys Tea on everyone else and forgets that he himself as a human being is the only one he should be counting on. They’re the ones who were speechless with shock at how the country changed during the boom times and now, that we’re back in a bust situation, are back saying “I told ye so”. No contributions, just bitterness.

Comment by Macker

24.

November 3, 2009
11:06 pm

I moved to another country (to be precise, the city of the original Lost Generation) almost five years ago. I’m still there/here. It wasn’t from disillusionment or ideological issues or a sociopolitical statement, nor was I particularly unhappy in Ireland. I just thought I’d like to live here. There are plenty of social problems and inequalities and unfairnesses here too (every country has their own native crop) but I’m happy here for the moment. I don’t feel I was forced by circumnstances out of my native land, so I don’t feel the desire to go back with a burning torch and (to borrow a phrase) rock the system.

But maybe one day I’ll feel like moving back to Ireland. This would mean sizing up the situation in Ireland and seeing what’s the best job/home/etc I could find and if I’d be happy with that. If not, then I’d stay here. I imagine people who emigrate to Ireland (and I know of people leaving this country to go to Ireland) make the same consideration. Simplistic, perhaps, but that’s my experience.

Any of you coming here for the match on 18 November, we can talk about it then.

Comment by aidan

25.

November 4, 2009
2:00 am

Utterly off topic Jim, but I have vague recollections of a thread here a few months ago about good reads on music - and any searches I input seem to bring up a load of stuff - I’m hoping you wouldn’t mind just posting up a couple of the books that spring to mind (present buying time!). Thanking you in advance!

Comment by Mindless

26.

November 4, 2009
2:22 am

I’m quite confused by a lot of the comments so far. There seems to be some kind of resentment towards people who have skipped the country when things aren’t going so well for them, and that somehow these people are unpatriotic, or something like that.

First of all, yeah, Shane Fitzgerald’s piece may sound a little bit like he’s coming from a background of privilege, but perhaps it might be better understood if we consider it in context. All the man has experienced up until now is abundant employment. Now he can’t get a job at home, and he’s a bit pissed off about it.

Someone suggested that rather than take the easy way out of emigrating, we should stick around and help the country. How is hanging around on the dole gonna help the country? How does living on social welfare and being unable to find work lead to positive personal development?

I also moved to London a number of months ago. I “stuck it out” for nearly a year after I finished an MA, working part-time in a service industry job and relying on social welfare assistance to keep me going (before anyone has a go I was entitled to this.) It wasn’t a very fulfilling existence. I applied for countless jobs to try and kickstart my career, but when you don’t see even a single response of rejection it gets pretty demoralising.

It saddens me that I can’t repay the investment the state has made in my education by working in Ireland. But what also has to be realised, is how long does a qualification remain relevant if no solid related work experience can be gained to accompany that? Would it be responsible for one not to try and develop their own skills even if it meant having to move abroad?

Also, there’s a recession over here too folks. And, hey, no surprise I haven’t manged to find a position in my preferred industry over here yet, but I do remain optimistic. It wasn’t a particularly easy decision to make, but it was one I felt I needed to under the circumstances for my own personal development. It certainly wasn’t a decision for economic benefit: with the exchange rate the way it is at the moment, I’m earning less than I would get by claiming social welfare and rent allowance back home. I’m not whinging about that, I’m getting on with it.

Also, one other thing was bothering me, Una, in the same post you give out about students protesting about lack of grants, but at the same time advocate a carefree creative life sponsored by social welfare? A little contradictory, no?

Comment by cash

27.

November 4, 2009
4:07 am

I remember a couple of years ago the Irish Times ran a feature about returning emigrants - those that left in the ’80s and early ’90s coming back because of the new opportunities. To a person they nearly all slagged the place off - people were less friendly, it was more expensive, it had ‘lost something’… I remember thinking “well bog off again so, and leave the place to those who are happy to be here, wherever they’ve been and wherever they’re from.”

Now everything has been turned on its head my attitude is the same now. But if you’re leaving because you feel like you have no choice, or for your own positive reasons, but you have no regrets, then you have my sympathy and/or best wishes.

Still, are we the first country in modern history to complain about immigration and emigration at the same time?

Comment by dealga

28.

November 4, 2009
10:24 am

100% agree with this article . Sense of entitlement is hitting it exactly on the head. Also this idea of ‘ far away hills are greener ‘ is ridicilous. Go to USA, or Europe or most of the UK, same boat . we’re all in the same boat, either get paddling or jump off ….

Comment by tayor

29.

November 4, 2009
10:46 am

@cash, I’m not advocating “a carefree creative life sponsored by social welfare,” I’m just saying that if you don’t have a family or a mortgage, it’s possible to live on €800 a month.

The point about student grants was about people complaining about the fact they couldn’t afford vital services, yet still continued to access supplementary, unnecessary services.

Comment by unarocks

30.

November 4, 2009
10:52 am

i work in finance and this morning heard of a new phenomenon being referred to as ‘jangle mail’ - seemingly people who are in negative equity, mortgage arrears etc & who are unable to keep up with repayments are risking reposession are packing up and leaving for places like australia - one recent case was a married couple wtih 2 kids that both lost their jobs within 2 months of each other - they’re returning their keys to the banks and telling them to do what they want with the houses.
There often is no way back here for them. There’s an increasing number of borrowers that owe money that cant be located, papers can’t be served to them if they can’t be found….
It strikes me as another example of thinking in the moment, i’m sure a lot of these negative equity purchases were bought ‘in the moment’ also, and why wouldn’t there be this though & these actions? They weren’t advised any differently.

Comment by CatNip

31.

November 4, 2009
10:56 am

For me, the worst thing about the recession has been seeing the wasted potential and talent of my generation (21 - 25, ie recent college graguates). Emigration, a worthless masters or the dole is what the options are for the most part. Luckily I found a job but I can tell you 3 months of employment is fairly crushing when you’re just out of college and hoping to put all the confidence/skills you gained in college to work.
I don’t think the blame game will get you anywhere but I think the government should be taking some proactive steps to put some of that wasted potential to work in low paid or experience based work.

Comment by bren

32.

November 4, 2009
11:05 am

Whilst the country is in serious trouble and the way our esteemed leaders are carrying on it will continue to be, as has been pointed out we have ourselves to blame. Two years ago we had our chance to try and put a stop to the madness but we kept on suckling away. Two years ago one of the main topics of conversation was how much you paid for your house and how much it was worth now. Them days are gone thankfully. ( you can tell that I didnt succumb to the national disease).

As for the sense of entitlement this is a problem thats going to grow and grow. For the last ten years children and adults got whatever they wanted. This christmas is going to be interesting to see if the kids still get what they want. Can people now change and start saying no? Also the horse has bolted with a generation of people used to being told of course you can have what you want and do whatever you want. i suspect that we may have a lot people whining that they ask to be born etc etc.

Re good books about music theres a book about American Music Club called Wish the world away which is good and kinda shows how success can be missed by inches. Also the book about creation records ( sonething about monsters eating I think0 is good.

Aprpos nothing anyone else noticed the similarities of Obama’ presidency with the Bartlett one? The Dover thing was uncanny.

Comment by Feathers McGraw

33.

November 4, 2009
11:08 am

The mature in Ireland? I’m in my twenties Colm. I didn’t go mad in the boom, I lived within my means. I didnt think I could afford a mortgage so guess what? I rented. I know people who laughed at the likes of me spending our ‘dead money’ on rent. I’m not going to laugh at their ‘dead money’ now, of negative equity and interests on loans, and I feel hellova lot sorry for all of us who have been shafted by an impotent government, as I stated above.

But as I also said; No one forced people to take mortgages to buy houses at prices that were many multiples of their income. People got caught up in a near fetish-like addiction to property. I blame the government for not cooling an overheated economy. I blame the banks for lending recklessly. But guess what?

A teacher in her twenties who borrowed €300k for a semi-detached in Josstown made that decision herself, and has to live with it. I have sympathy for her plight, but I don’t accept that she and others like her are absolved of their responsibility because of the government’s ineptitude.

Comment by Joe

34.

November 4, 2009
11:14 am

Mindless @ 25 - that warrants a brand new blog post which I will get to in the next week or so. Stand by!

Comment by Jim Carroll

35.

November 4, 2009
12:10 pm

Well put Jim.

It’s a fascinating debate.

I’m leaving for foreign shores at the end of this year but it’s ‘of my own volition’ as you put it. I’d always planned to leave Ireland around now (in early 20’s and working in my first job a year and a half) and my departure just so happens to coincide with the economic downturn.

I’m leaving for many of the reasons expressed by other posters - better opportunities in my field etc. but it’s mainly for the experience of living elsewhere and for the good old fashioned adventure of it all.

But the reality of the situation is that I’m highly unlikely to get a job here if I return in the next few years which makes my decision to leave a lot more ‘final’ I suppose, and a little scarier.

I’m not surprised that the ’sense of entitlement’ that emanates from Shane Fitzgerald’s piece has jarred with so many people.

And I echo Leigh’s very astute point that this misplaced and misguided ’sense of entitlement’ probably has a lot to do with the state of the country at the moment. Its presence can be clearly seen in the obscene golden handshakes (it’s only what they’re ‘entitled’ to after all), and in the never-ending expense receipts of our government ministers.

So when are we going to be entitled to be incensed about this sense of entitlement?

(try saying that three times fast!)

Comment by Riley

36.

November 4, 2009
12:20 pm

We have a lost decade and a lost generation because of the reckless policies of FF and the PDs and the disastrous policies of the current government that are directly deepening and prolonging our recession.

Conversely these reckless policies mean, that at a time when the economy is in tatters and those we invested so much in are emigrating in droves, no less than 57,000 immigrants come in here last year. Why? or is it wrong to ask? Reckless policies included reckless migration policies. These make matters worse for us.

Comment by Ray D

37.

November 4, 2009
12:48 pm

Thanks everyone for the comments so far. It’s a fascinating debate because it pulls in so much of how we got to this spot and how we’re going to get out of it.

As well as highlighing the “sense of entitlement” bug, one of the other reasons behind this post was a need to stress that sometimes emigration is not a negative thing. I hasten to say that I’m not advocaing any Brian Lenihan Sr “we can’t all live on a small island” approach, but rather what emigration can bring to a person in terms of skills and ideas.

Comment by Jim Carroll

38.

November 4, 2009
1:35 pm

Have done it before, it’d be much more difficult to do it again, but I’d certainly consider it if things got much worse here. I feel absolutely no responsibility to ‘contribute’.

You can say we’re all responsible for the mess we find ourselves in if you like, but not all of us are.

I love Dublin, it’s home, but would I go somewhere else if I had better prospects and didn’t have to pay for the mess that politicians and their cronies got us into? Yes.

Also, I’m unsure why people are at each others throats over what is a personal choice. Most people don’t leave for shits and giggles, they go because they want something different, they want something that they can’t get here - whether that’s a job, lifestyle or whatever.

Comment by Twenty Major

39.

November 4, 2009
2:25 pm

This is an interesting read for me as an American ex-pat living here in Dublin for nearly 8 years now. As a person who grew up in the States, I sometimes find the Irish attitude on social welfare, college fees, benefits and the overall general sense of entitlement shocking.

Even more shocking to me is the sense of entitlement many Irish emigrants continue to hold once they’ve left the country. That some undocumented Irish immigrants in the States believe they deserve some kind of residential immunity is a joke. I am legally allowed to reside in Ireland because I have an employment-based visa which I had to work damn hard to get. No one deserves a sense of entitlement, especially a person privileged enough to have received a university education in the first place. Sometimes life makes you struggle, sometimes you get lucky. Do what you have to do to survive, whether that means remaining in the country or going… but moaning about what you didn’t “get” or what you “deserve” isn’t going to make it any better.

Comment by Jessie

40.

November 4, 2009
4:32 pm

I have a huge issue with the term “sense of entitlement”. Alot of students/graduates have what I would consider a “sense of optimism/promise” based on their own country that is drilled into them by the state through education and through a time when every one but them was living large.

The idea that 20 somethings picked this up themselves and are selfish/self absorbed/only out for a good time is off the mark and ignorant.

Of course alot of people of that age/generation have high expectations but jesus, what 21 year old out of college doesn’t? If people have a problem with a supposed sense of entitlement then they need to look at the wider social and economic context and see where they picked it up from.

I personally have mixed feelings, six months out of college I’ve got alot of work experience (largely unpaid) under my belt in my chosen field. But I live with a fear that the social welfare that is keeping me going and giving me the opportunity to find a job that will allow me to contribute to this country could be slashed, that the dues that I am happy to pay (and always, ALWAYS knew I would have to pay, recession or no recession) may never be rewarded.

This was always going to be the case in many ways, I certainly never thought post college/graduate life would be easy but its been inherently more difficult in this climate. There are opportunities here and chances for something now but its being made to feel harder and harder to do and I feel like as a country we are allowing the recession to excuse an awful lot. And sniping at an entire generation who took on the hopes and expectations of an older (should have know better) generation who bought right into a materialistic new world is not something I think we should excuse.

Comment by Conor Behan

41.

November 4, 2009
5:46 pm

Another point to consider is the 4th level qualification norm that dominates the academic practices of 20 somethings at the moment. Undergrad degrees don’t cut the mustard anymore, everyone is ridiculously qualified in almost every field. No matter how well Shane did in his degree, it was (and I mean this with the greatest of respect and remorse I didn’t do one myself) a basic Arts degree. A fine grounding for a professional qualification or further academia of any sort, but not recognised as any qualification in itself. I have friends with GPAs I didn’t think possible from a BA, a plethora of extra-curric, 600 points… the list goes on… but frankly they KNOW they have to look to a postgrad to make them in any way competitive.

The bar is raised. The Leaving Cert has now been simplified year after year (am adamant about this), undergrad degrees in this country lack any semblance of quality assurance/international acclaim and ‘practical’ qualifications are fiddled by corrupt officials to balance books (surely one of the most ludricious Fás stories). Frankly it’s time for this generation to give a monkeys again and work for their results. A bit of practical, real life experience is just what the doctor ordered. And in the real world, sometimes you have to earn your job and a UCD transcript won’t be enough.

Comment by Ciara

42.

November 4, 2009
5:49 pm

Tom @ 23
I am missing the clarication. To me you have simply repeated your original comments. If you check I did cut and paste your quote to avoid misunderstanding. If I have missed the point I apologize but you need to point out my error. I have to assume from your comments that you had the resources to outlast the 80s. Few people of the age of the writer of the original article did and so I would judge you to be relatively immune. Congratulations on your efforts - but you are not entitled to judge how ‘easy’ it was for others. At least in the 80s there seemed to be some sense that the loss of a generation was a bad thing. Apparently this was bad-mouthing (since you have clarified that we are talking about bad mouthing circa 1985ish – I seem to recall a fair amount of bad-mouthing within the country too … but maybe memory is failing me). Now in the 00 it seems many are welcoming the prospect of the return of mass emigration as some type of apocalyptic purge.

Macker @ 23.
Yup I have to say cappuccino on the Liffey boardwalk was a bit of a shocker. Here’s my contribution for the day. It’s a question for you. Do you think Ireland has learned anything since the 1980s ? Why given the investment of the Celtic Tiger era are we back in the bust situation? Do you think that the influx of investment in the 1990s should have meant that there was a better ability to ride out the world recession?

Joe @33: My comments are directed at those dismissing the sentiments in the original article. But I do find it hard to criticize those who looked at an every increasing price spiral and thought that they had better jump on before it left orbit. Many first time buyers are probably in their 20s who will not have any memory of the 80s or earlier so while your judgment has proved better than most I don’t think economic/social policy can rely on the majority of people being able to make a similar judgment. This is where Milton Freidman’s rational expectations breaks down over the medium run!

Jessie @39: What you see as moaning others see as a debate on how not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Many of the comments above dismiss the original article as not worth discussing.

Finally : There’s been much discussion of a ’sense of entitlement’ in the comments. Is it unreasonable to expect Ireland to be able to support its population? This to me the question posed by the original article. My response is ‘hell yes’ and the 90s gave us a unique opportunity to build a foundation towards this goal. And in fairness we did make some progress. Now it seems we are reverting back to the old ways. If the answer is ‘no’ and we are resigned to a future of “population bulimia”.

Comment by Colm

43.

November 4, 2009
6:13 pm

Must add also that friends of mine who are out in Oz (with rubbish jobs and little support it needs to be sad- the weather makes one very forgiving- but who claim to be having a ball) have rubbished my claims that things are getting slowly settled and better for those of us who stayed (I’m 23 incidentally) and slipped into further education or jobs that may not have featured on the 10 year plan but pay the bills.

Whether they left with a sense of entitlement or not, they remain in exile with a shocking venom for their home country and a cynicism regarding any hopes of rising beyond. With many I think they would have left anyways and are merely using the economy to justify their gargantuan chipped shoulder. They managed to put together the money for 4 J1s in successive Summers so life has hardly slipped from desperation to the supersonic lament with which people like Shane write.

Comment by Ciara

44.

November 4, 2009
7:23 pm

Well, I think that its a national disgrace that U2 are being forced to live in some ramshackle shell company in the Netherlands. Bring the boys home. They should not be left to rot over there like this.

Their symbolic repatriation can be the “Mary Robinson candle” of our generation and give hope to those still unable to return.

Comment by JD

45.

November 4, 2009
7:37 pm

Not in My Naaaame!

Seriously, I’d really like to point out that rdlp715, PintofUnspecific etc is not THAT goober Shane Fitzgerald. I’m a different goober of a Shane Fitzgerald… not the Green Party councillor from Leixlip either.

In no way do I want to be associated with such a careerist moaner like that other Shane. Business and Sociology? Should we call him Shane BS for short? There is another Shane Fitzgerald formerly of UCD. He’s playing League of Ireland football for Galway City at the minute. I imagine its tough work, paid peanuts and he doesn’t write to newspapers complaining about it. They seem to be avoiding relegation, so we’ll call him Shane FTW

Anyway, I had read BS’ article online the other week and hoped it would just fall through the cracks. Then, the mistaken identity parade started up again. Even my editor emailed me the other day; “Did you move to Lahndan town?? You’re still able to interview ___ though, right? ___’s interview is already gone up, damn them and their fulltime writers, I’m still sorting it but I’m juggling three jobs”.

Yes, it is true that jobs are hard to come by for we 2009 BA grads of UCD, but everyone I’ve known who has looked hard enough or long enough has found “something”. Nixers here and there.
Apologies to Shane BS though, because very few of these nixers are as soul-destroying and heart-wrenching as getting a ten euro hour-long flight to London to work at a theatre..! Last night we had a send-off for a lifelong friend who is moving to Australia.(-he has no qualifications). He is the kind of person who may never return. Who knows though because the world is a global village now, right? Emmigration is a different proposition entirely to experiences of the generations goneby.

For others who stay, it has been learning how to be a butcher’s assistant or how to clean a toilet just enough so that when the next batch of drunks come in it won’t all have been in vain. Nobody pretends to like it. At the same time nobody tries to build a career by self-parodying that Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen sketch…

The underlying hope for those lucky ones, what keeps one going, is that if you can just save enough and put up with it for a year you’ll be able to pay for your Masters next September. Take shelter from the storm in the sanctuary of full-time education. Then by the time that’s done maybe the world won’t be so shit when you’re 25ish and you’ll have a decent shot at a better job. We were always warned from day one that a degree is worth nothing without something on top of it. In the real world whether that is true or not is irrelevant, but I don’t know anybody else who expected to waltz straight into a job, let alone a job of significance, straight after grad.

Back in 2006 when I started my BA in UCD, I got a job in Spar Baggot Street to get me by, and the guy who trained me in… had just graduated from the exact same degree I would pursue. At the very height of the boom. I would love to know where this impostor got this implicit promise of a job. Really.

At the end of the day, a 22 year old lad with a good education under his belt is moaning that he gets to live in London, work in a theatre and write for the IT. Well, would he like fries/a career with that? Short-term emmigration for a 22 year old with nothing else to do in the 21st century is also an opportunity and he doesn’t even realise it(or rather, he won’t admit for self-serving purposes).

My editor had suggested in the aforementioned conversation that I add an initial to my name to distinguish us. There are not enough letters in the alphabet to distance us, Shane BS. The genius voice of a lost generation you are not.

Sincerest condolensces for your “hardships”,
Shane STFU Fitzgerald

Comment by rdlp715 aka Shane Fitzgerald

46.

November 4, 2009
8:05 pm

Colm @42: You ask “Is it unreasonable to expect Ireland to be able to support its population?”

I find that attitude somewhat weird. Shouldn’t a person focus first on supporting themselves rather than expecting support from their country, whether that’s in the form of social welfare or employment?

I wholeheartedly second Ciara @41’s comment: “Frankly it’s time for this generation to give a monkeys again and work for their results.”

Comment by Jessie

47.

November 4, 2009
9:24 pm

It’s interesting that so many commenters here are saying that people weren’t forced into buying property, and that anyone who took on a large mortgage only has themselves to blame. Aren’t people aware that Ireland is a country with very poor protection for tenants, and the market during the boom years really favoured landlords? Rents were very high and you can currently only get a lease for max four years at a time. If you were planning on staying in Ireland long-term, and particularly if you had a family, renting was not a particularly safe option. And the long rise in property prices meant that the perception was that you would lose out by waiting to buy a house.

Obviously people who bought big extravagant mansions and handfuls of investment flats don’t deserve any sympathy, but I think the people who bought modest properties (especially in satellite towns) at inflated prices are entitled to be angry at the government. For many people, there was no realistic alternative to buying their own place.

Comment by jean

48.

November 4, 2009
10:43 pm

Actually Jean the figures showed that for the period 2001 to 2006 rents were flat, despite the rise in house prices. There was a rise in 2006 that has been wiped out and more since. The yields for investment property were pathetic, yet people kept piling in.

The fact is that, adjusted for inflation, rents are now at mid-90s levels yet house prices are still miles above that level. The rule of thumb used in the States is that your home should not cost more than 15 times what it would cost to rent the same house for a year. Using that logic the average house should be in the 150K - 200K bracket.

You talk about perception, but everyone happily bought into the perception of ever-increasing prioperty prices. No one wanted to know, too many people didn’t heed the warnings. I’m angry at the government for many things, but people choosing to spend absurd amounts of money to live in three bed semis in the sticks isn’t one of them. You make it sound like these people had no choice. Yes they did.

Comment by dealga

49.

November 5, 2009
3:12 am

As a 23-year-old recent graduate, I can only echo the thoughts of many in this thread who have been taken aback by the sense of entitlement displayed by the likes of Shane Fitzgerald (the London one!)

The man graduated with a BA in Economics and Sociology - did he really think that the world of business would be beating down the door to have him on their side? Hardly.

I graduated in 2008 with an arts degree in history and politics. Granted, I was somewhat naive going in and, were I to do it again, I’d have picked something more substantial. But I chose my course, and I was fully aware that the job prospects were relatively minimal.

Having just come off a post-degree course, I find myself in a declining job market with still-inflated wages and no real job experience to speak of. I may find myself emigrating in the near future, but I refuse to blame anybody else for my problems.

Comment by Dave

50.

November 5, 2009
4:43 am

Thinking about this again I’m kind of annoyed that mine, and all the other PAYE workers’, taxes have effectively been wasted giving these people a free third-level education.

There isn’t even a hint of recognition that not only does the State owe these people nothing, the State - through the rest of its citizens’ taxes - has already given them plenty. I bet it has never even occurred to them.

Comment by dealga

51.

November 5, 2009
11:14 am

Dealga - these people?

They’re Irish citizens and it’s ridiculous to suggest that PAYE has been wasted giving tens of thousands of Irish people an education. I’d suggest that it’s about the only decent thing the Govt has done with taxes in recent years.

It didn’t occur to me either that the Govt has ‘already given me plenty.’ They gave me what they owed my parents, a decent education that they paid for throught their high taxes.

The States owes the new generation a huge debt.

Comment by nerraw

52.

November 5, 2009
12:52 pm

The world will continue to turn.

Comment by NaRocRoc

53.

November 5, 2009
2:03 pm

@ NaRocRoc

…on its head…

Comment by Leigh O'Gorman

54.

November 5, 2009
2:08 pm

Dear-oh-dead.
The majority of these comments are awful and myopic, coated heavily in cynicism and bitterness.

Good piece though Jim, fascinating read.
I don’t need to say why I left, you of all people know I have wanted to get out since I was 16 (that was smack in the middle of the Boom).

Comment by Pedro

55.

November 5, 2009
3:41 pm

Dealga, would you mind sharing links to the figures for rent? Everyone I know who lives in Dublin was paying extremely high rents during that period, and many had their landlords sell the properties due to high demand. Maybe it was just a Dublin problem, or maybe it’s just perception again, I don’t know. But to suggest that everyone who bought houses way outside Dublin was blithely happy to do so, just isn’t true. And I may be incorrect about the rent prices, but the fact remains that tenant protection was still very poor, with very few long term leases available. If you have a family, can you really countenance the expense and upheaval of moving house every few years?

Comment by jean

56.

November 5, 2009
4:10 pm

Don’t understand some of the comments.

1) The guy didn’t buy a house. Why are lots of people saying he did. “Nobody forced him to get on the property ladder” and all this. He didn’t get on the poperty ladder.

2) Presumbly he finished college last may or june. That’s 6 months looking for a job and I’d be off too if I was in that situation. The alternative is to stay here and go on the dole long-term & what sort of alternative is that.

3) The “sense of entitlement” might have gotten up a few people’s noses. Well I think you actually are entitled to live in your own country if you are educated and willing to work. You are entitled to expect the government to protect the economy and the jobs market. You are actually entitled to a job, believe it or not, if someone wants to hire you. That’s what a government is supposed to do, enable people to work. He got work in london.

Comment by JByrne

57.

November 5, 2009
4:29 pm

See nerraw there’s the nub - the government is a ‘they’ for you. ‘They’ are the people that we, the citizens, put in power (unfortunately). They represent us. They decide how much to take off us and how to spend it. So what if your parents paid high taxes X years ago? The social contract doesn’t work like that.

When the State pays for the education of its future citizens it’s an investment in the future. If they then bog off at the first sign of trouble well then it’s a wasted investment. That our new emigrants may have no option could be the Government’s fault (then again whose fault is it really if your qualification is in a field that isn’t valued during a recession).

But the only question I was asking is if our new emigrants, those looking back with bitterness, have even contemplated the social contract they’re effectively walking out on.

Jean here you go, well worth a read:
http://www.davydirect.ie/other/pubarticles/econcr20060329.pdf

Personal anecdotes are all well and good. I rented the same place from 2001 until the end of last year. I never realised I didn’t have the protection you refer to. Nonetheless the collapse in property prices inside the M50 would suggest there was plenty of rental property available and, in fact, people did not NEED to move to Mullingar, Portlaoise and the rest. They CHOSE to because ‘rent money is dead money’ and all the other guff that sounds so laughable now.

Comment by dealga

58.

November 5, 2009
10:12 pm

If given the choice, which would you prefer? To grow up in the 80s with zero expectations and then find when you graduated sometime after the mid-90s that there was plenty of unexpected work to go around: in fact, too much, with recruitment agencies having to go abroad to find people to fill the void?

Or to grow up during the celtic tiger, when many people, especially our darling former taoiseach did a mighty job of denying that capitalism generally brings with it a crash at some stage and then find yourself graduating into this sorry mess?

People forget so quickly. Maybe thats a good thing. Many people forgot all about the 80s during the boom, and already we forget that the boom created an artificial environment for a while in Ireland, and people almost believed it would last forever.

If it did, I am sure people like Shane Fitzgerald would have found some kind of modest job that may have brought him towards his chosen career path, which is all he seemed to be looking for. Just a job.

I for one think its sad that so many younger people (and some older) have no option but to leave. Not for them, its a fantastic opportunity to live life and learn about other cultures or ways of life, (as has already been referred to). Its hard for the people left behind. It affects quality of life, especially outside the cities. Also, as the population decreases spending power and tax intake decrease in tandem and the situation gets harder for those left behind.

Maybe comments @26 and 56 point 3 express better what am trying to say.

Comment by Finola

59.

November 6, 2009
11:11 am

The phrase ’sense of entitlement’ has been used 25 times in this thread. We Irish sure do love our catchphrases and our sense of entitlement.

27 now.

Comment by Vinnie

60.

November 6, 2009
10:32 pm

Thanks for those suggestions Feathers - and looking forward to that blog post Jim!

Comment by Mindless

61.

November 9, 2009
6:28 pm

What I want to know is: WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE EMIGRATING TO? Where are these Utopian paradises with abundant jobs and opportunities that have somehow avoided the recession? Isn’t it a GLOBAL downturn?

Comment by Quint