There was a two-hour exchange this afternoon between Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and Mahon tribunal counsel Des O'Neill SC on the composition of a £24,838.49 lodgement made to an AIB branch in October 1994.
The tribunal is arguing that the lodgement could have been the result of an exchange of sterling, but Mr Ahern insists the lodgement was made up of some sterling and some Irish punts. However, he is unsure of the exact composition of the money.
Questioned this afternoon on the lodgement Mr Ahern said it comprised an Irish punt sum of £16,500 - a "goodwill" loan from four friends - and £8,000 sterling which he was given by a group of Manchester businessmen.
According to Mr Ahern the £16,500 consisted of four amounts given to him by friends - £3,500 from Paddy Reilly, £3,500 from Joe Burke, £5,000 from Barry English and £4,500 from Dermot Carew.
Mr Ahern has said a sum of £24,838.49 lodged to the bank on October 11th, 1994, comprised the £16,500 and the Manchester donation.
However, he today said it was possible he may have taken some money away from this or added some to it before he lodged it. The composition of the lodgement, therefore, may not have been exactly the sum of the £16,500 loan and the Manchester money.
Mr Ahern said he believed the sum was not arrived at in the manner put forward by Mr O'Neill, who suggested an incorrect or unfavourable exchange rate was applied by a bank official based on a lodgement of exactly £25,000 sterling.
Taoiseach Bertie Ahern
Mr Ahern said he had done his best to help the tribunal with regard to the composition of the lodgement, composed of the money from four friends and the Manchester lodgement. He said today the Manchester lodgement might have been slightly under or over £8,000.
"I didn't realise I was going to get into mathematical power games as to what the figures were."
Mr O'Neill put it to Mr Ahern that the version he was giving to the tribunal today was inconsistent with the account he gave in his interview with the tribunal in April this year.
He said Mr Ahern's earlier account that the lodgement was composed of the two amounts had been "unqualified", whereas today he had said there could have been partial additional amounts added or subtracted from it.
Mr Ahern said he believed there was "very little difference" in his accounts of the lodgement.
The Taoiseach said he had "always said" he could not be certain about the exact sum of the Manchester donation. "But I'm fairly certain I got eight thousand pounds," he said.
The Irish amount was £16,500 to the "best recollection" of the friends who had given it to him. "Did I take a bit out? did I put something in? - I cannot be certain."
Mr Ahern said he did not recollect going into the bank to make the lodgement himself. He said he recalled Philip Murphy of AIB coming out to St Luke's on a couple of occasions but on this occasion he thought he went in.
He had no recollection of actually being in the bank on that specific day and didn't recall being there with Celia Larkin on that day.
The tribunal presented documentation that showed Ms Larkin lodged £800 to her own Masterplan account at the AIB branch in O'Connell Street on the same day the £24,838.49 was lodged to Mr Ahern's account.
Mr O'Neill explained that that branch of AIB in O'Connell Street recorded taking in £27,491.95 in the Irish equivalent of sterling on October 11th 1994.
The average normally taken in at that branch on a daily basis was about £2,000, Mr O'Neill said.
He said that if an "inappropriate" rate of exchange had been applied by the bank to a lodgement of £25,000 sterling on that day, it would have equated to exactly the £24,838.49 lodged by Mr Ahern.
AIB would have applied different rates, depending on the amount of money being exchanged. One rate may have applied to small exchanges while a different one to large amounts.