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  • irishtimes.com - Posted: August 22, 2010 @ 9:49 pm

    Does “proper English” matter?

    Donald Clarke

    YouTube Preview Image

    In a recent post, I made a few passing smart-Alec remarks about The Irish Times Stylebook’s assertion that lady thespians should be referred to as “female actors” rather than “actresses”. Quite a few readers ignored the main thrust of the post and laid into this dictum with uninhibited gusto. The odd comment supported the stylebook’s strategy, but the consensus was that this was Political Correctness Gone Mad. It reminds us of those straight bananas the EU is always forcing us to eat. It recalls all those South London borough councils that banned the singing of Baa Baa Blacksheep.

    Other correspondents decided to pick up on further eccentricities within the paper’s linguistic rule book. What’s with this business of “media” being treated as singular noun? And so forth.

    A certain degree of consistency is desirable when editing a newspaper. It is, thus, a good idea to have a few rules in place. What, however, of the world beyond Tara Street? Perhaps all we should ask of writers is that they be clear and unambiguous in their prose. After all, the English language — even in its most formal incarnations — is awash with words that were once part of the vulgar vernacular. The rules on what is right and what is wrong change from decade  to decade. Does it matter if the proverbial grocer includes an unnecessary apostrophe when notifying us of his wares? Let’s be honest. When you read “potato’s”, you don’t really think that some tuber is in possession of an unidentified entity (though, if you were writing in to The Irish Times’ “letters page”, you would, almost certainly, pretend otherwise.)

    This is certainly the view of Mr Stephen Fry. You’d expect Viscount Stephen to be pernickety about such things, but in a recent podcast he claimed that he cared not a whit about the vegetable seller and his wandering punctuation point.

    More surprising still, Kingsley Amis, an unforgiving sort of conservative in later years, was reasonably easygoing about certain supposedly unshakable rules relating to grammar and syntax. He was prepared, for example, to happily forgive the use of split infinitives. (Do you see what I did there? Ho, ho!) He did not object to “however” appearing at the start of a sentence.  He even allowed that, in all but the most formal prose, editors need not insist on “whom” as the object of a sentence. He has a point. If some lesser person dares to growl at you in a disrespectful fashion, you will seem like a buffoon if you retort: ”To whom do you think you’re talking?” (In this example we are also, you will note, working hard at drawing the preposition away from the end of the sentence — yet another regulation that Sir Kingsley felt no need to enforce.)

    Amis’s observations on usage appear in a superb book entitled (rather awkwardly) The King’s English. Somewhere in the opening passages, he explains that, when considering the use of English, most people break its speakers down into two classes: Berks and Wankers. The imagined citizen defines these categories thus:

    “Berks are careless, coarse, crass, gross and of what anybody would agree is a lower social class than one’s own. They speak in a slipshod way with dropped Hs, intruded glottal stops and many mistakes in grammar. Left to them the English language would die of impurity, like late Latin.

    “Wankers are prissy, fussy, priggish, prim and of what they would probably misrepresent as a higher social class than one’s own. They speak in an over-precise way with much pedantic insistence on letters not generally sounded, especially Hs. Left to them, the language would die of purity, like medieval Latin.”

    Amis’s point, I suppose, is that we should strike a happy medium between respecting the language and being a priggish oaf. Good advice, you’d have to agree. Then again, there are certain “misuses” of English that, notwithstanding Mr Fry’s pleading, drive me to fits of blinding, spitting rage. When a writer wonders at the “enormity” of the universe, I know, of course, that he means its hugeness rather than its monstrous wickedness, but I still find the maltreated word an affront to all that’s decent. The most annoying blunder of all, however — more annoying even than “disinterest” for “lack of concern”, a usage that is fast becoming acceptable — is surely the use of “cliché” as an adjective. Where the hell did this come from?  A matter of minutes ago, everyone seemed to know that this word was a noun and they treated it accordingly. Now, you can’t access a comment board without reading something like “This movie is really cliché.” Is it? Is it really? Is it also really comedy and really biopic?

    Well, at least, I can relax safe in the knowledge that no usage guide will, in the next decade at least, accept this particular linguistic atrocity. Hang on, somebody has just pointed me to a recent online entry in Webster’s Dictionary. Lurking at the bottom of the page, we find the following horrid addition: “cliche: adjective“.

    Oh, what’s the bloody point?

  • 45 Comments »

    1.
    August 23, 2010
    6:29 am

    I can forgive and even enjoy nearly anything. The exception is “winingest” .

    Comment by Tony
    2.
    August 23, 2010
    9:39 am

    These simply rules come from one Eric Arthur Blair. His famous essay on lazy journalism “Politics and the English Language” was written in 1946 during his peak as a writer. I think they are pretty solid (and damned difficult) set of rules to both obey and apply.

    (i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

    (ii) Never us a long word where a short one will do.

    (iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

    (iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.

    (v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

    (vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

    The female actor vs. actress thing is probably being driven by the industry itself where awards have changed name to reflect this. I would also say it is covered by rule number vi covering barbarisms.

    There are many people I know that are deeply uncomfortable with the renaming of Lansdowne road and the media tendency to refer to its rebranding rather than its location (as was previously the case). Only one fact has changed here, the location has not.

    Comment by robespierre
    3.
    August 23, 2010
    10:15 am

    hoo cares

    Comment by bren
    4.
    August 23, 2010
    12:20 pm

    @ Robbie: An interesting and concise set of rules. (i) I don’t get. Is he saying don’t use similes or metaphors or is he saying don’t use ones that are overused? I totally agree with (iii) and (iv) because both rules simply make communication more effective (which is surely the key point). I also agree with (v) because the whole reason for using such words, and especially foreign phrases, is that there either isn’t an English equivalent or there isn’t one that’s nearly as effective.

    My main thinking on proper or disproper (just winding you up Donald) contemporary language use is that the aforementioned communication factor is the overall bloody point, which is so often muddied with assumptions of class and superiority/inferiority complexes.

    The two examples below assert my current musings on the foibles of English language usage as I see it.

    (i) If a word/phrase/pronunciation seems to be out of date due to modern ineffectuality, there is a worthwhile argument for discarding/updating it.

    (ii)If your email or text message is so full of ultra modern buzz words and extreme syllable butchering that the responder needs to read it 10 times or scan it through an online urban dictionary, then it might be time consider why there is that sizable delay in responsive discourse.

    Comment by Enda McDonagh
    5.
    August 23, 2010
    12:48 pm

    My all time favourite Irish mangling of the English language is ‘yizzer’. Because, of course, if the plural of ‘you’ is ‘youse’ and its possessive is ‘your’ then the second person plural possessive adjective must be ‘yizzer’. Obviously.

    Comment by Leopold
    6.
    August 23, 2010
    1:14 pm

    It’s tediously boring (tut-tut tautology) though, how — especially in academia — certain words (there are about a dozen) crop up all the time in nearly every scholar’s work — “reify”, “paradigm”, “dichotomy”, “metonymic”, for example and which hints at a propensity towards homogeneity (could have written “sameness” so breaking rule (ii) above) as the desirable goal — as does adhering to rules of grammar, even more so. And yet the geniuses we celebrate (Joyce, Mallarmé, Artaud et al) ignore restrictive limitations and break through boundaries, so to speak. I suppose there is one set of rules for analysts and another for geniuses — or rather no rules for geniuses and rules for analysts. I think I have arrived at an untenable position — analysts cannot be geniuses.
    Anyhow, one is quite partial to a bit of rhetorical device action, for example, “antimetabole” (stupid Microsoft Word doesn’t even recognise it) where a word or phrase in one clause or phrase is repeated in the opposite order in the next clause or phrase as, for example, “the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence”, or “epizeuxis” (fe*k Microsoft Word), which is the repetition of words or phrases next to each other, for example, “a rose is a rose is a rose”.
    Syntax always a problem for me — probably why kynos (a regular in these parts) is one of my favourites — he breaks all the rules — but never, not really, at any rate Eric Arthur Blair’s rule (vi) — courtesy of robespierre above.

    Comment by iXimen
    7.
    August 23, 2010
    1:57 pm

    @6 Actually, while I haven’t looked into this in enough detail, there is enough anecdotal evidence that the word youse is in fact dialect rather than poor grammer and stems from the english spoken by normans.

    The last part of Ireland where this was actively spoken as a first tongue was Wexford. The language was called yola.

    Here is an extract and a link to an article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_language

    Comment by robespierre
    8.
    August 23, 2010
    3:10 pm

    Yes texting lingo has become the bain of many college professor’s existance. We had an intern who told us that his College Writing Professor had to actually tell the students not to use texing lingo (lol, lmao) in their term papers. Can you believe that? This situation reminds me of back in the 1980’s when the toy store, Toy’s R Us first opened and my great aunt who was a high school teacher was lamenting the poor grammer. I remember her biggest pet peeve was use of R for the word are. What concerns me is the idea that perhaps texting has made us poor spellers, and has weakened our grammatical knowledge.

    Comment by Jennifer Ohashi
    9.
    August 23, 2010
    3:25 pm

    @ Enda – Orwell states that one should avoid using clichés not metaphors or similes that are original. Examples he uses in the essay is “going to hell in a handbasket” and “giving ‘x’ the jackboot”.

    I read the Road to Wigan Pier a few months ago which predates the essay and he was guilty himself in his earlier years of using inelegant prose.

    Comment by robespierre
    10.
    August 23, 2010
    4:17 pm

    Allso, was thinking along the same lines as robespierre @7 insofar as, grammar – we make it up as we go along
    And who, today, could believe that the Our Father, for example, was once written (correctly) thus: (Old English — 11th Century)

    Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
    si þin nama gehalgod tobecume þin rice gewurþe þin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum
    urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us to dæg
    and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
    and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice.

    See/hear this in link, below (if you can stomach the soundtrack and the voice)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wl-OZ3breE

    Comment by iXimen
    11.
    August 23, 2010
    4:51 pm

    My own bugbear is the use of the word “refute”. To refute something, of course, is to prove it untrue, which is hardly ever the sense in which it is used – usually reporters use it when they actually mean “deny” or “rebut”. The best description of the difference that I’ve read was from William Hartston in the Independent – he referred to a court case involving Bill Clinton and a lady who had accused him of sexual harassment. Said lady claimed that she had seen his penis, and claimed that it had an unusual curvature. In the witness box, Clinton was reported to have “refuted” this claim, when he had actually just denied it.

    But, just imagine if he really had refuted it? It’s a difficult image to get out of your head…

    Comment by Botong
    12.
    August 23, 2010
    5:02 pm

    @ Jennifer: I do think that spelling and grammar in general has been on a steadier decline for a while now. But I principally blame spell check software for this. I think computer spell checks have somewhat affected people’s natural ability to suss out a misspelt word as well as to be alert to more frequent errors. I hold a similar belief that Satellite Navigation negatively affects people’s inherent sense of road direction.

    @ Robespierre (sorry I titled you incorrectly earlier) I can see Orwell’s logic there, but I think a bigger and perhaps more modern problem is that many people use the word metaphor now for both metaphor and simile. What adds weight to this inaccuracy is that I reckon similes are generally used more often.

    I’m expecting Mr Clarke to intervene any minute now and remind us that we drifting away from his initial question “Does proper English really matter?” From reading all of the above the answer appears to be, ‘sort of’.

    Comment by Enda McDonagh
    13.
    August 23, 2010
    5:59 pm

    As regards Orwell’s famous dicta, I have always been a little baffled by him taking quite so strongly against the passive voice, Yes, it’s probably better to use the active, but it’s surely not a big enough problem to include in your top six rules for good English.

    You may be aware that Elmore Leonard issued his own rules a few years back. The one I particularly liked was: (I’m paraphrasing) when reporting speech, avoid synonyms for “says”. I agree. I hate those pieces where people are forever “opining” or “asserting” or “avowing”.

    Comment by Donald Clarke
    14.
    August 23, 2010
    6:23 pm

    @1 tony — sorry but think you left out an “n” — “winningest”, I think, is the atrocity that you cannot tolerate

    Another thing, it is surprising how many people think that it is never correct to place a comma before “and”

    Comment by niXime
    15.
    August 23, 2010
    6:47 pm

    I entirely agree with Orwell and remeber the esay well having read it for English O level.
    Had Robespierre not quoted it I would have done. I hate and abhor bad grammar almost as much as bad manners….although I have been guilty of both on occasion..possibly….maybe!
    Grammmatically incorrect prose simply jars and once I come across it, it puts me off reading any further. It just seems so illiterate, unless it is a contrivance/conceit in which case it can be excused…c.f Ulysses/Portrait…
    There’s just no excuse for it other than ignorance…and the solution is simple….READ MORE
    Talking of Mr Blair I re-read another of his essays recently inspired by An Irishman’s Diary piece on the same subject…the prose was as spare as the physique of the miners about wot he wrote…!

    Comment by grammatrix
    16.
    August 23, 2010
    7:29 pm

    I’ve just spotted typo’s…shoulda been ‘remember’ and ‘essay’…whoops!…That was just idleness should check spelling before pressing submit button!

    Comment by grammatrix
    17.
    August 24, 2010
    9:26 am

    Oh dear.

    Bold Nimrod was a hardy buck and drunk with his own power
    Thought to prod loose the Man Above with the spire of a mighty Tower
    But God roared, ‘Hold tight ye heathens, I’ll prove my divine mettle,
    I’ll scatter ye all to the four winds and your linguistic hash’ll be settled.
    Ye thought ye had it bad before but now life will become a
    Woeful trial, unspeakably vile, with the advent of the Oxford comma.’

    Nimrod realised his error’s enormity, but too late it was too late,
    ‘Oh Lord’, he whined, ‘have mercy, the Grammarians are at the gate.
    At least offer some comfort, some lexicon that is definitive,
    Don’t leave us to waste away our lives debating the split infinitive’.
    Says He, ‘I heed your pitiful cries, you’re well and truly smote,
    So here’s your consolation prize, this fine Buke what I wrote.’

    Oh dear. Hardly worthy of Joe Duffy’s Fun Fridays (?), I know.

    Comment by Nam Citsale
    18.
    August 24, 2010
    12:33 pm

    @ Nam 17 – brilliant
    (Was thinking it was influenced by Milton’s “Paradise Lost”)

    Here’s an interesting thing (from J.C. Nesfield’s “Outline of English Grammar”, Chapter XXXVII — Origin and History of Certain Words) and which doesn’t augur well for “cliché” remaining a noun when we consider the “progression” of the following word, for example:

    DURING.— Properly the Pres. Part. of the verb dure or endure, to continue. “During this week” was originally “this week during or enduring,” absolute construction. By an inversion of the order of the words, “during” has assumed the status of a preposition.

    Here’s another thing (where A.S. = Anglo Saxon)

    ELEVEN: A.S. end-lufon, Gothic ain-lif, where ain means “one,” and lif means “over,” “left.” So “eleven” literally means “ten and one over.”

    Comment by mexnii
    19.
    August 24, 2010
    2:01 pm

    @18, more Richie Kavanagh than Milton, although both men had a hand in creating Pandemonium, (of sorts). Ba-dum. Tish. I think Mr. Duffy would most likely laugh at rather than with me. Quite right too.

    Comment by Nam Citsale
    20.
    August 24, 2010
    5:38 pm

    Thank you for this post. My Irish-born mother raised us in the US to adhere to the dictates to the Language Patrol. Any family member who spotted an incorrect use of a word felt free to jump in to correct the offender. The Lanaguage Patrol is ingrained in my proofreading eye and governs the words I use. I am pleased to know that others care about the proper use of English. I say, at the risk of violating the rule of not using figures of speech (or hackneyed expressions), “Keep up the good work.”

    Comment by Pat Iyer
    21.
    August 24, 2010
    6:18 pm

    This movie clichés website is craic if yizzer in that kind of mood
    (Love the one for “middle ages”)
    http://www.moviecliches.com/

    Comment by mixine
    22.
    August 24, 2010
    7:03 pm

    @grammatrix, I disagree that bad grammar is such a big deal, but if you insist on: using “..” or “….” where “…” is meant; typing “typo’s” where I suspect you intended “typos”; omitting any punctuation at the end of a paragraph; omitting a comma after the sub-clause “Talking of Mr Blair”; then maybe it’s not such a good idea to come down so hard on others for similar (very understandable) errors.

    Comment by mennis
    23.
    August 24, 2010
    9:01 pm

    You are at liberty to disagree, I care little but perhaps you should check your opening statement for accuracy consistency. Oh yeah you missed ‘ about wot he wrote…!
    Grammar: pro/nouns ad/verbs tenses. Punctuation: capitals full stop question mark comma quotation marks apostrophes… hence ‘grammatrix’…
    I prefaced my remarks with an admission of my own culpability…particularly when typing a hurried comment on a blog whilst tired and doing a number of other things… this does not prevent my ‘grammahorror’ when confronted with that of others…especially in a piece of ‘finished’ prose…
    Just MY little foible…
    Btw is anal retentive hyphenated… just thought you might know! That was a rhetorical question… at the risk of repeating myself I have no interest in engaging in any further exchange of views with you…

    Comment by grammatrix
    24.
    August 24, 2010
    11:20 pm

    To whom it may concern. Just wish to make it quite clear that minxie (or any variation of my silly name) is not in any way related to mennis @22. And for the record I thought grammatrix was making good sense

    Comment by mixine
    25.
    August 25, 2010
    5:41 am

    I am almost 55 years of age and have been teaching for almost 30 years at university level. I regularly meet my least favorite word in the English language: utilize. I would love to know why this word is needed (is it needed?) when the writer can simply write “use”?

    Comment by James
    26.
    August 25, 2010
    11:58 am

    I feel I should weigh in here, being one of those most outraged by the “female actors” issue. On that matter, I would like to point out that my outrage was not at the use of the term, but at the style guides insistence on its use as a preference.

    We’re all guilty of our occasional typos, but there are limits – I believe – to which the English language should be bastardised. Grammar is important, but the biggest problem I find in written English these days is a complete failure to understand how punctuation works.

    There’s no right or wrong way to say what you mean, but there are clear ways to do it. I’m all for the evolution of language, as long as basics of sentence structure don’t collapse in the process.

    Comment by David Neary
    27.
    August 25, 2010
    12:41 pm

    The hypercorrective usage of “you and I” instead of “you and me” takes the das Biskuit, as far as I am concerned.

    I also favour the use of “whom”, where appropriate but I would never say anything but “who are you looking at,” for example. Why? Because this is idiomatic usage and idioms, in my view, do not come within the remit of High Resolution Grammatics.

    English grammar is not as crystalline as German grammar, for example, so one has to be on one’s guard about being too priggish about is; it makes no sense going beyond a certain desirable dgree of precision. The captiousness of the pedant is, more often than not, rooted in a nagging and unrelenting sense of insecurity.

    This self-conscious insecurity has become very prevalent among Irish people in recent decades as we make the transition from the colonial creole (usually referred to nowadays as Hibernian English) we spoke after the denigration and subsequent suppression of the Irish language to a form of English that we feel might be presentable on the international stage. It is actually quite amusing to hear people, even in private conversations, straining. stumbling and stuttering to get the “th” right, for example. It is also sad.

    When the Irish spoke their own language they were masters in their own linguistic universe. The archetype of the English-speaking Irishman (“addy the Irishman”) is now an insecure entity at the bottom of the ladder in someone else’s world, trying to play someone else’s game.

    We speak second-rate English in Ireland, and always have done. I, for one, do not believe for one moment the oft-peddled patronizing guff according to which we speak the best English, as is often rumoured. Some nice English person with a bad conscious might have once stated as much, no doubt. And you can forget Joyce and Beckett; if they really were as good as the blurb, they were exception to the rule.

    The fact that the Irish people are going through a second major language transformation within the space of less than 10 generations is an aspect that has not been, to my knowledge, researched and analysed. Anyone out there looking for an idea for a thesis?

    Comment by too_ewe_and_eye
    28.
    August 25, 2010
    3:11 pm

    This thread is getting betterer and betterer

    Oh, here’s another brilliant thing from Nesfield ‘s Outline of English Grammar (mentioned it @ 18 above)
    This extract is re the origin and history of the word SELF, which went from adjective to noun

    SELF: A.S. [Anglo Saxon] self or silf, signifying “same,” “identical” ; as in self-same. Observe then that in A.S. self was an adjective, not a noun. As an adjective it was put after the pronoun in the same number and case. Hence we find such forms as ic selfa (Nom.), mín selfes (Gen.), mé selfum (Dative), mec selfne (Acc.). In the Mod. period self acquired the status of a noun, with a plural selves, like “shelf, shelves.” So we get the forms myself, thyself, herself, ourselves, yourselves, where the noun “self,” or “selves,” is qualified by a Possessive adjective. In himself the word “self” is still an adjective. In themselves there is a confusion between “self” as noun and “self” as adjective. In strict grammar it should be either themself or theirselves. The latter is common among peasants in the southern counties of England. [Nesfield was writing c 1950]

    Em…why can we not do italics here? Had to leave out all the italics in that extract.

    Comment by mexnii
    29.
    August 25, 2010
    4:25 pm

    I presume that, in that same Stylebook, journalists are instructed that the current editor of the Irish Times then be referred to as a member of that group of ‘female editor’, instead of just plain ol’ editor, and, of course, to address her in-house as ‘Ma’am’?

    Comment by Jim
    30.
    August 25, 2010
    5:44 pm

    Apostrophes: serving a purpose since, erm, a long time.

    If in doubt, leave it out. Nothing looks worse than an apostrophe in the wrong place, or added when none is needed. Some people think you just add them to the end of a word if it ends in a vowel, ie banana’s. As if it’s just a little decoration!

    Comment by Derek
    31.
    August 25, 2010
    7:27 pm

    …and then there’s American English. For example, Americans use “pretense” whereas we (going with UK convention) use “pretence”. And then there’s the “ise” or “ize” thing — “realise” or “realize”. Whichever ending is used, the thing is to use it consistently throughout a paper or essay; but note, the following words are always spelled in -ise,
    advertise, advise, apprise, chastise, circumcise, comprise, compromise, demise, despise, devise, disfranchise, enfranchise, enterprise, excise, exercise, improvise, incise, premise, revise, supervise, surmise, surprise, televise.
    (Helpful link, below, on this)
    http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ise1.htm

    Comment by eixnmi
    32.
    August 25, 2010
    7:47 pm

    Why has the word ‘revert’ been adopted by every idiot is trying to appear professional…or urgent…or who knows? One former colleague instructed his customer service team to leave the following voicemail: Sorry I am not available to take your call. Please leave a message and I will revert to you on my return.

    Quite the existential challenge methinks.

    Comment by Ollkk
    33.
    August 27, 2010
    2:39 pm

    I am American, once when I was in high school just to see what would happen I started spelling the word color (the american spelling), colour (the UK spelling). Fortunately, my English teacher was broadminded (having lived in the UK, studying English Lit) and did not dock me (others would have). In America, we can very rigid when it comes to spelling, grammer, and punctuation. I tend to be a bit fast and lose with mine. As far as word that piss me off “24/7″, uptight, down low, team player, the phase “think outside the box”, another phase”that’s how I roll”. Unfortunately, in America the land of stupidity there are too many annoying words and phases to count. Here you have a lot of buzz words and catch phrases from television, movies, and commericals; so you have an endless cycle of this nonsense floating around.

    Comment by Jennifer Ohashi
    34.
    August 27, 2010
    7:21 pm

    As an Irish lassie, I went through many a weird phrase when I was a teenager. God only knows what that would have been like had I been an American.

    Comment by minnie O'Reilly
    35.
    August 28, 2010
    10:06 am

    I seem to remember being told that the strict rules did not apply to and the correct form was not to punctuate electronic communication…So there!

    Comment by grammatrix
    36.
    August 29, 2010
    9:54 pm

    The word “RANDOM” seems to be everywhere at the moment — ao annoying when it’s used in haphazard indiscriminate way

    Comment by minX.ie
    37.
    August 30, 2010
    10:38 am

    @grammartrix, I’m not trying to annoy you, just couldn’t resist a bit of good-natured fun-poking. You’re post read as clearly as any on this board. If it’s good enough for Emily Dickinson, it’s good enough for me. In my opinion, the pressing issue is the use of punctuation. As grammartrix correctly pointed out, it doesn’t form a part of grammar proper, but is rather a way of putting on paper the natural pauses and intonations of spoken language. Grammar is in a fluid evolution of idiomatic language use, but punctuation forms a set of tools for writers who wish to communicate effectively. Rather than being taught (or learned) as a set of strict rules, it should be seen as an opportunity to take advantage of an arsenal of clever symbols. Of all the things at our disposal, they can make our writing clearer and easier to read. And BTW (he, he) I’m only using my best English here because of the subject. Usually my online postings are like something from Ulysses.

    Comment by mennis
    38.
    August 31, 2010
    4:50 pm

    @3 bren
    Well yoo-hoo, bren re hoo cares — just thought you might like to know that “hoo” is a pronoun (West Yorkshire and South Lancashire dialect) meaning “she” and it’s from Old English “heo”
    So there ya go!

    Comment by inXie
    39.
    September 1, 2010
    11:39 am

    I hesitate to resurrect this subject which should by now have been waked and buried but I’m *just after* listening to the radio and the peculiarly Irish habit of using the passive rather than the active tense…i.e the tendency to use *would be* instead of is…it drives me nuts…I know the use of *after* before the present tense of a verb is of Hiberno English origin but this for fashion passives… is it more than just bad grammar…I’n inclined to think so given it’s universality in Enlish as she is spoke in Ireland…PLEASE STOP…!
    mennis… It’s OK I’m a bit fractious when I’m tired… which is most of the time…!

    Comment by grammatrix
    40.
    September 1, 2010
    12:36 pm

    yes, but does one put the comma inside or outside the quotation marks?

    Comment by comma toast
    41.
    September 1, 2010
    4:31 pm

    Whatever about the Irish and the odd “dis” and “dat” and whether some auld lad is telling another auld lad that he “was just after having” a pint of the black stuff and how much he “was after enjoying” it; that which comes out of the mouths of the English underclass is beyond conjugation. I cannot watch Coronation Street, for example, not even for two seconds, since to my ears, these people sound like dogs barking; and I doubt even subtitles would help. By comparison, the English in Fair City sounds quite “proper.” However, I am afraid this “Soapy English” has already contaminated and will continue to contaminate the vernacular here – and in particular at the level at which it is absorbed. Innit.

    Ps – Even Sumo’s Granny (Fair City) sounds like a fourth level graduate compared to Vera Duckworth, for example
    (saw her once for two seconds)

    Comment by minXie
    42.
    September 1, 2010
    4:50 pm

    @39

    If you live by the anal sword (oo, painful!) grammatrix, you will die by the anal sword. There is no such thing as a “passive tense”. You are thinking of a “passive voice”. Anyway, “would be” rather than “is” has nothing whatsoever to do with activity versus passivity. In this example, the conditional tense is being used instead of the present tense. The passive voice is a construction in which the natural subject of a sentence becomes the recipient of the action. “I was kicked by Jack” (passive) rather than “Jack kicked me” (active).

    Apologies, but, as I say, if you set off down the pernickety path you will find yourself being pulled up on any such error.

    Comment by Big Louise
    43.
    September 1, 2010
    5:19 pm

    @ 41 Yes, you’re right about the voice/tense distinction..I realised what I’d written after I’d posted the comment…I know! I really should re read what I’ve written but as I’ve said elsewhere I am not infallible in these things… However on this occasion the ‘point’ was about usage …I just wanted to know if the ‘would be’ construction is based in Hiberno English in the same way as ‘just after doing’ etc…
    Your anal habits are a matter entirely for you…’whatever get you through the night’ as they say…don’t they Screenwriter?!

    Comment by grammatrix
    44.
    September 9, 2010
    12:45 pm

    @43 — eh, oi tink yer comment was ment ta be @ 42

    Comment by minX.ie
    45.
    September 10, 2010
    3:13 pm

    Most of the grammatical constructions used in Hiberno-English are the result of a direct, literal translations from Gaeilge. Certain tenses are entirely acceptable in other languages which sound either nonsensical in English and vice versa. So the use of the conditional is an example of a remnant of the Irish switching language in a short space of time. As for the passive voice, I’m not sure if this is one of those cases, but it probably is.

    Comment by mennis

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