You’re right Bryan, and it applies to all big issues at the moment. Instead of dealing with the big ecnomic problems we got hung up on Sean Fitzpatrick’s pay and the number of junior ministers (issues indeed, but symbolic ones rather than the main issues of the day).

Lisbon: abortion/commissioners, rather than the future of the EU and its direction.

Statutory rape cases: obsession with constitutional referendum, rather than dealing with core issues.

Any of the big issues in Ireland in recent years display this phenomenon.

In dogs and other lower mammals it’s known as differentiation behaviour. You’ll sometimes see two dogs snarling at each other, hackles bristling, ears laid back, legs stiff. Then suddenly one breaks off and becomes suddenly and hugely interested in something like a caterpillar crawling on the ground, or smelling its own rear end, or whatever. The other dog stays, bristling, but less so, ready to strike, but not as much as before. Then both go their separate ways. Nothing has happened, but both remain convinced it has.

Two comments. Steve makes good points about your blog. but I have started to think that most people on your blog live outside Ireland or at least a disproportionate amount of them. Is that true? And if so is it due to the fact that Irish residents are more likely to buy the IT hard copy with no blogging, whereas a hard copy is not an option for most non residents.

But also if it is true what does it say about the degree to which views on this blog are truly representative of IT readers, and perhaps much less still of the irish pop. as a whole.

I really don’t know the answers to my questions above and would like some clarity.

Patrick
Bangkok

AFB – do you think this phenomenon is worse in Ireland than in most other places? If it is, what is it about Ireland and not dealing with things head on?

Liam – I get government doing that – incompetence, political pressures, etc. – but how come the electorate stands for it? People on both sides of the immigration debate, for example, have been calling on more debate/discussion on the issue by government. How come the electorate puts up with that demand, and others (health care reform, investment in education, etc) being ignored?

Kynos – ‘Differentiation behaviour’. That’s brilliant. Thanks Kynos.

Steve – Thanks. But while the odd politician or senior civil servant may check on this blog every now and again, you’re going to be heard much more clearly if you picket outside the Dail than add a comment here. If people really want to engage the government in this issue, then calling on TDs and that kind of thing would surely have a greater impact. And even when the issue is discussed here, it often feels like some folks just want the opportunity to vent their frustration at the immigrant community and maybe they see me as an adequate symbol for that. But even then, it’s just venting that seldom goes beyond that. There’s still often a refusal to really engage with the subject.

But I take your point. And if this can be a place where there is dialogue, even if it takes the form of people shouting across each other, I’m much happier with that than there being physical fights.

Patrick – I think a good portion of those who comment regularly live outside Ireland, but I think it’s still majority local, I think a lot of people are like my friend and colleague Breeda. In a professional setting, he will only step out and engage in a public debate if she absolutely has to, but that doesn’t mean she isn’t following the discussion or doesn’t have something to say. A lot of ‘locals’ I think are similar. It takes a lot to get them to comment.

That said, like you, I sometimes wonder about how representative this blog’s community is of Ireland as a whole. If I had to guess, I’d say its younger (average age 35 maybe), much more urban, wealthier, more male and has far fewer immigrants than the rest of the country.

Kynos – I’m going to have to display my ignorance. I don’t get the “New Words For Today” bit.

Bryan,

Perhaps we’re not that different from others, I think the English are similar.

The greatest symbol of resistance Ireland had in the past 50 years wasn’t the 1916 signatories; wasn’t Tom Barry; wasn’t Bobby Sands; wasn’t any of them. It was a black boy from Crumlin named Philip Parris Lynott. For some reason tonight I miss that hero something awful.

AFB – you’re probably right

Patrick – Hopefully, there comes a time when people at the very least acknowledge the fact that things are seldom black and white. At that point, who knows? The shouting may give way to rational discussion.

Kynos – that sad thing is that I’d never heard of him until now.

Philip – I’m missing something but I suspect that has to do with my previous comment.

Complaints about strong views being aired in forums about immigration usually end up with those who have strong view AGAINST mass immigration being censured stigmatised and caracatured as cave men by liberals who demand the gagging of any view which doesnt fit in with their open door ,immigration stance world viewpoint .Its funny that they go on about tolerance, but really they only are tolerant of views which are broadly reflective of their own.Immigration is a banned subject for discussion in Ireland right up to the Dail and this is undemocratic in itself,In years to come people will wonder why,after all this is our country,

Kynos,

I would agree with Paraic that objective discussion of immigration, race, culture, and nationalism are next to impossible in the EU, largely due to popular media and government spokespeople demonizing anyone who’s opinions are more than 3 degrees to the right of Leon Trotsky.

With all due respect, asking Paraic to “define an Irishman” only serves to distract from the points that he raised.

For the record, I don’t agree with all Paraic’s viewpoints – but I think he should absolutely allowed be raise them, and have them discussed rationally and objectively, instead of slanderously and hysterically, which is the way these topics are usually received.

Bryan,

fair enough, you get a lot of negativity and finger pointing whenever you raise an issue like this. The intolerance is on both sides though. While some people on the right side of the spectrum are just old-fashioned, bigoted and xenophobic and can’t wait to share those happy feelings from the safety of their keyboard, they’re equally matched on the left side of the spectrum with the motley collection of 60s burnouts who only want to jump into these topics so they can burnish their left-wing credentials by spouting a bunch of rhetoric, and then walk off all satisfied that they protected the world from Fascism© yet again.

I still think your blog is the best one on the Irish Times website. Don’t get disheartened. I used to moderate a political discussion board years ago, and the amount of hysterics and theatrics, mostly from a few repeat posters, was ridiculous. It used to drive me up the wall.

Hi Steve. I disagree with your point re: asking Paraic to define an “Irish” person. In my opinion this question cuts to the heart of the issue we’re discussing on this thread. I note Paraic has not replied, perhaps for the simple reason he’s not returned to the thread, perhaps for the reason he has no answer. In the latter case I’d accord no blame, for it’s a question I’ve been asking myself (born in UK, raised in Ireland by Irish parents, one again born in UK, with ancestors who served on the allied side in WW2 and in the Irish police with great distinction, other ancestors who participated in the war of resistance against British occupation, others who served in the colonial RIC; formerly a dual national myself, with friends from both sides of the religious divide in this country, educated both in IRL and UK; one who served in HM’s customs & excise, who has since worked all around the world, etc., etc.,). I think it’s a burning question. Is it racial? Is it a matter of self-identification? Must one have been born here? Must one be a citizen? Must one have one or more generations buried in Irish soil? What? What defines “Irish” versus “non-Irish” in terms both of residents of this country and residents of this country-in-the-heart and in-the-head? For the record also, there was absolutely no suggestion, implicit or otherwise, on my part that Paraic or anyone else not be allowed air their views. You seem to be hinting that there was. Not so. It is only through truthful, honest, and frank discussion, however offensive some may find it (and there will always be those who find offence in anything) that we can have any hope of approaching something vaguely resembling the truth; the Real. I think Bryan’s blog is one of the best on this website. For a start, he doesn’t allow gratuitous personal insults to interfere with the discussion and his open heart and mind are clearly in evidence. I like Fiona’s blog too. Quirky funny and of a literary bent that appeals to me anyway.