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• University Fees

  August 12, 2008 @ 10:44 am | by Bryan

  Fine Gael’s Brian Hayes claimed that the reintroduction of college fees by Fianna Fáil would be the most socially retrograde policy measure in a generation. Labour’s Ruairí Quinn called the proposal short-sighted and short-termist. Photograph: Cyril Byrne

  University fees are being discussed. The big question is whether or not undergraduate students should have to pay for their education.

  My alma mater is the University of Zimbabwe. We had to pay nominal fees as undergraduate students, but were also given a government grant that was at least twice the fees. But even with those grants, students from poor families really struggled. Apart from tuition and books, going to university meant forgoing a potential wage and having to come up with money for living expenses. The government grant just didn’t cut it.

  On the other hand, the government subsidies were unsustainable. The country couldn’t afford to invest enough money to both maintain and upgrade the University. As a result, there was never a sense that things were getting better, or even staying the same.

  I understand the argument that if Irish universities are to compete with the very best in the world, they need more funding than the government can provide. But I also understand why there is such an outcry at the idea of introducing fees. It could potentially increase the divide between the rich and everyone else. Even if some people were to be exempt from paying the fees, it would be very difficult to get the balance right.

  Taoiseach Brian Cowen did say that there were going to be difficult choices to be made. He was right.
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20 Comments »
1.
August 12, 2008
11:19 am
I think external examples can only take us so far in this argument. The Australian policy of students reimbursing the government in accordance with their earning capacity after graduation seems a sensible policy. The big issue appears to be that free education has not had the desired effect on social mobility. The demographics don’t appear to have changed and if anything students/teenagers from middle-class and upper middle class families have benefited more. In this regard, given the massive inequalities in Irish society, a means-test wouldn’t seem inappropriate. I don’t see this as a stepping stone either. Just a reasonable suggestion for an obvious problem. I’d pretty much disregard anything that comes from FG on issues such as these. Not because of a love for the government but because their points-scoring is beyond desperate at times.
Comment by Seán
2.
August 12, 2008
11:24 am
The introduction of fees will not increase the divide between the rich and everyone else. Since fees were abolished in the 90s the profile of those attending college has barely changed at all. No additional disadvantaged students have been empowered to attend college. The abolition of fees was a purely middle-class oriented subsidy and is a disgrace. What’s worse is that it was introduced by the supposedly-socialist Labour Party. In fact, it demonstrates the true colours of that party - self-interested middle class charlatans.
Free college fees is another shameful middle class subsidy that should be gotten rid of. Another example - the non-means tested children’s allowance.
What’s annoying is that the fees debate comes up in the context of the economy when it has nothing to do with government savings. This debate was raised before by Noel Dempsey, but as ever in Irish politics, things can only get done when the electorate is scared into thinking its absolutely necessary for the sake of the economy (rather than a good idea anyway).
Comment by An Fear Bolg
3.
August 12, 2008
12:34 pm
If don’t believe introducing fees we help anyone unlesss it is for everyone. That means everyone leaves college with a goverment supported loan. Including those whose parents are on the dole. Otherwise these adults would have an unfair advantege over other students leaving owing 20/30,000 which will take them 5/10 years to pay back. This would mean most people would be at least 35 before they could aford a home. While those leaving without this loan would be able to get a home at 26/27 years old giving them a huge advantage they have not earned.
Comment by AdB
4.
August 12, 2008
12:42 pm
Seán - That makes sense, but what happens to those whose families are struggling to send their children to university at a time when there are no fees to pay?
AFB - How would you help people from lower socio-economic backgrounds get into universities?
AdB - That’s an interesting suggestion. My wife has a huge loan to payback because she had non-EU fees to pay. It seems as though non-EU students already subsidise universities to a certain degree. Do you think there should be a greater effort to market Irish universities around the world?
Comment by Bryan
5.
August 12, 2008
5:34 pm
Bryan, I think this whole issue of marketing Irish universities around the world, particularly in the East is already happening and has been for some time. Look at all that brouhaha about Irish students being squeezed out of medicine places to according international students who literally pay enough fees for educate an Irish . They say besides the rich endowments they get, American colleges are vastly well resourced because of the number of international students who pay some serious money to access further education in that country. I suspect thats where Irish universities are headed. Apparently international students contribute approximately $14.5 billion dollars to the U.S. economy…
Comment by Itayi
6.
August 12, 2008
7:50 pm
Bryan, few things SICKEN me as much as the commodification of education.
It is not something to be bought or sold.
It is the sacred DUTY of the older generation to educate the next generation.
We have to STOP our political spin-doctors in their tracks now and REUSE to swallow the LIE they insinuate to us that education is too expensive or not worth the investment.
I had to pay University fees through the nose in the ’80s and it was not pretty! With loss of earnings factored in, I started work 60 grand down on 13k a year gross salary. Even at that, I was one of the lucky ones: at least I GOT to university; many, many people I knew just could not afford it.
Scapegoating education for economic difficulties is disgusting and should not be tolerated in a so-called enlightened society.
This is just more rubbish to soften us up for the privatisation of education at all levels. Anyone else here ever seen that episode of the Simpsons where the private corporation takes over the elementary school?
Only people who are ignorant about what education truly is talk about it in these terms; business-speak like going forward/competitiveness/cost-effective/management/benchmark/reports/productivity,
/ globalisation/privatisation, blah, blah, blah!
HANDS OFF!
Comment by Tim
7.
August 12, 2008
11:32 pm
Did you know that before the abolishment of
University fees that University Lecturers did
not have to pay for their kids attending University ??. University lecturers also have an addition tax allowance,just because they are University ,Lecturers. MA and PHD Degree fees can be fully sponsered for them by the University. Free Child creshes paid for by the tax payer ?. Now they are lobbying for the University fees ,( P.A.Y.E )workers to have to pay once again. I am sure that the minister is a fine man,but if this is the best initiative he can come up with ,he and his band of brothers will have a short minesterial carreer. Most famlies are already under financial pressure negative equity,international financial turbilence and rising food costs. I am not going to speak about the cost of the triburnal and about the weakness of our laws dealing with corruption.
Comment by Michelle
8.
August 13, 2008
9:04 am
I pay my taxes and the government supposedly provides certain services in return. Yet the roads are tolled (with obscene profits going to NTR) and that is before car tax, VAT and tax on petrol, etc., schools want “voluntary contributions” while books cost extra, waste charges are extra, I pay to watch foreign channels on my television, I pay VAT on most things I buy in the shop. If I use a credit card, I pay an annual tax on that.
It seems to me that my payroll taxes pay for very little.
But my biggest problem with the fees proposal is this: Say the fees take in €10 million. The first thing the government will do is cut their funding to the universities by that amount. I forsee no, or very little, net gain for the universities — and I will be stuck with another stealth tax.
Comment by John
9.
August 13, 2008
11:03 am
Itayi - I’m with you. Even though I’m at the receiving end, I think getting foreigners to subsidize education is a great idea. I think anything that potentially makes third level education more widely available can only be good for the country in the long run. And if it makes the rest of the country a little extra money on the side, great!
Tim - I hear you. If the aim is to create a ‘knowledge based economy’ then it’s imperative that everyone who wants a university education gets one.
What do you think about the suggestion that free third level education equates to a subsidy to middle class people and hasn’t opened things up for those lower down the economic ladder?
Michelle - You’re right, there’s a lot of waste around. But I’m not sure I’m against the benefits to lecturers that you mentioned. Doesn’t that sort of thing attract the very best people to Irish universities?
John - I think you’re right. Well, at least as long as the economy isn’t great.
Comment by Bryan
10.
August 13, 2008
4:45 pm
Bryan, to answer your question about access for those further down the economic ladder:
There is alot of spin around this issue. True, many of those in the lowest stratum of the economy have not taken the opportunity, but that has more to do with lack of aspiration, lack of parental expectation and lack of intervention at primary level than with access - everyone has “access” to third level since the abolition of fees; except, perhaps those from rural areas far away from third level universities and colleges who cannot afford the extra money for accommodation.
Then, there is the issue of defining “third level”; Spin doctors will tell us that few people from lower economic groups have gone to university, so the abolishion of fees has not worked; this may be loosely true in that they did not go to a “University”, but they have gone to third level colleges, DITs and PLC colleges in their TENS of THOUSANDS because fees were abolished. I know this because I know so many of them, I have seen them and the figures are available to prove I am right (even on the DES web site).
This is about articles 113-118 of the Lisbon treaty again, paving the way for the privatisation of all public services, including education and health. (read those articles and satisfy yourself; don’t take my word for it.)
Comment by Tim
11.
August 13, 2008
7:29 pm
I think education should be a right to all individuals in Ireland who are capable. Even if a student comes from a poor family, if he has the will, intelligence and works hard there should never be a cap on his potential - government should assist him/her the whole way.
An educated society is a powerful society. I firmly believe that every individual should be given the opportunities by government to make the most of his/her life regardless of where or what his parents can do. The children who have achieved the most not the parents who have paid the most must be given access to Ireland’s universities.
With that idea in mind the challenge is how do we go about doing it?
I think all have reasonable access to primary and secondary education so the fee system should be based on the particular students achievement during there high school.
Assume your average upper class income is 100k pa, your average lower class income is 18kpa and full university fee for an undergraduate course is 18k pa. Reasonable assumptions I think.
A two part variable fee system would be effective:
1. If a child achieves a below average amount of points and is in the bottom 40% of students that year - full fee of 18k must be paid. Gov resources are better directed at other candidates.
2. If a child is an average performer and achieves within the say 40% - 60% range of that year the fee must be variable and based on portion of family income e.g.
Full Uni Fee (18k) x [family income / avg upper class income (100k)]
3. Achievers in 60% - 75% bracket must have the calculation from (2) applied except a fixed rate exemption applied of e.g.
Comment by Mike Finch
12.
August 13, 2008
7:45 pm
Sorry clicked submit before I finished typing that:
So 40% - 60%:
Full Uni Fee (18k) x [Family Income / Avg Upper Class Income (100k)]
Students in 60% - 75% of year get a certain fixed exemption to benefit lower level income families e.g.
{ Full Uni Fee (18k) x [Family Income / Avg Upper Class Income (100k)] } - €1500
Students in 75% +
Free or almost minimal.
Obviously strict conditions attached subject to annual assessment to keep them motivated - there is nothing worse than a student who has their fees paid and joy rides the whole year because mom and dad won’t get cross.
Gov should promote low interest debt for students on good payment terms to pay back later. Gov should increase tax incentives for companies to pay the fees for students like 150% deductions on any uni fee paid for full time students who have contractual obligation to be employed on completion of studies.
An idea I had which I quite like is:
Since government has subsidized students education - they have a fixed price on each students based on level of qualification. Then companies must buy the students from the government. Sort of like how an employment agent works except government is the employment agent.
Like I said previously I view education as a right - if an Irish student has the potential they should be able to reach any level of study they wish without being held back by the financial implications. Universities are not a business - they only need to maintain standards and NOT turn any type of profit! Undergraduate foreign students must pay not only full fee but an inflated full fee. Postgraduate foreign students should have access to reduced fees on condition they work in Ireland for 3 years after their degree or they are liable for a full inflated amount.
Comment by Mike Finch
13.
August 13, 2008
7:47 pm
The fee estimate obviously being based on a one parent family. No of working parents should be taken into consideration.
Comment by Mike Finch
14.
August 14, 2008
11:42 am
Mike, God help us all!
Comment by Tim
15.
August 14, 2008
2:37 pm
Sorry about that Tim. I realise it is a bit of mumbo jumbo. I’m a tax consultant so I’m thinking of it in an unusual way and didn’t put much time into making much sense of it. My main point is that you should discriminate between students based on their personal achievement first and then further adjust fee based on parents income. There should also be tax incentives for companies to pick up some of the bill and more options for finance. I see it often and it is a sad event when someone is willing but unable to fulfill their potential due to financial restrictions.
Bryan I apologise about the anger in your previous post. You would understand where it came from if you knew my line of work.
Comment by Mike Finch
16.
August 14, 2008
11:38 pm
Mike - You’re grand. I can only imagine what you came across…
As for your suggestion on the fees issue, like Tim, I struggled with the details, but th concept makes sense. I like the incentive it gives students to work. A big question though is affirmative action. Do you let a student from a low socio-economic background whose points are in the bottom 40% still go to university for free? If they do go, and they succeed there, that could break the poverty cycle for that family. Would you consider that possibility worth the financial risk?
Comment by Bryan
17.
August 15, 2008
10:47 am
Lower 40% and from lower-socio background should not get a free education. If you’re not capable you shouldn’t get opportunities simply because your family is poor. Finance should be available though so you can take the risk of reaching the potential at your own peril. As I said, annual assessment if they do well to adjust the fees if they do perform well at any stage.
Comment by Mike Finch
18.
August 15, 2008
3:05 pm
Mike, what happens to the girl who gets 38% but gets a place at university, can’t afford it, but in a different environment is capable of doing well?
Comment by Bryan
19.
August 15, 2008
7:04 pm
Hmm that is interesting. Problem is no rule or law will ever apply perfectly to all situations but it is better to have them than not. However, in this situation a strict rule can have undesirable outcomes which are against public interest so maybe making the whole process dynamic and having an appeal option where they can have their situation heard by a social worker who can assess applicable fees at their own discretion.
Comment by Mike Finch
20.
August 17, 2008
5:16 pm
But Mike, won’t that barrier just be a disincentive?
But you are right, there’s no perfect system.
Comment by Bryan

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