outsidein

  • Pluralism

    August 7, 2008 @ 12:39 pm | by Bryan

    I grew up in a plural society. I went to school with Christians, Muslims, a Jewish guy and a couple of Hindus. Most of my friends were, like me, black. But I also had brown and white friends. By the age of 12 I had either gone to a birthday party or had a meal in the home of at least one member of each of those groups of people.

    As a hungry university student, I often invited myself to different peoples’ homes for meals. My favourites were the homes of a Tanzanian family, a Sri Lankan friend and an Indian classmate. Multiculturalism was never questioned. It was all around us and was generally viewed as a positive thing. I certainly learnt a lot and enjoyed the love and friendship of my diverse group of friends. And for some reason, I assumed that the rest of the world was the same.

    From the time this blog began, there have been people who have expressed their unhappiness with Ireland’s growing pluralism. Some people have also expressed frustration with what they see as a tendency to paint anyone who questions multiculturalism as a racist. Until now, I have tended to brush these complaints aside. Part of the reason is that I see further immigration and mixing of cultures as an inevitable end. That is one of the prices a country pays for, and maintains its prosperity. The only real question as far as I can see is how that process is managed. I also dismissed those weary of new-comers because some of them gave silly, outrageous or even sometimes, outright racist objections to a plural Ireland.

    That said, I think people who genuinely feel that there has been too much of an influx of different people into Ireland should be able to make their case. It is, after all, their country. You have the floor.

    • 66 Comments »

    1.
    August 7, 2008
    4:39 pm

    Are you suggesting Zimbabwe supports a multicultural environment? Mugabe’s speeches often differentiate between British residents and Zimbabweans. Weren’t the land invasions seen as the blacks taking back their land back from the whites? You obviously went to an expensive private school to have been around so many different nationalities. The opinion of the lower class Zimbabwean is a very different bitter and racist one.

    Bryan, I think the problem in Ireland is not racism but ignorance & classism. I am a 35 year old white male with an Irish name & passport BUT I have a strong African accent. I am a big 4 qualified CA but I found my job search demeaning and I struggled to find even a small temporary job. I think they saw Zim/SA experience on my CV and they expected me to start doing trial balances with an abacus.

    I blame a large part of this experience on refugees. They have turned a once accomodating Irish public into a skeptical one. The refugee status in Ireland is not being controlled effectively. The Geneva Convention contains flaws and contradictions which are not relevant for today’s world. It allows for abuse with regards to the refugee status definition and particularly the 1967 Convention extension of the definition. For example, poverty is not legitimate grounds to seek asylum but war/violence is. However, if you think about it the two often go hand in hand, so how can you differentiate? I know of financially stable & apolitical Zimbabweans who have abused this flaw to escape the lifestyle of a 3rd world country.

    Unfortunately, with a recession and an increasing unemployment figure, refugees and immigrants are taking much needed jobs. The Irish have a right to control who live amongst them but murderers or paedophiles might be walking next to Irish kids because they pitched up without any passport or documentation seeking asylum. Many refugees are taking part in crime e.g. drugs etc. They are also abusing the welfare system and you have €2.5 million annually going onto an unproductive sector of the economy. Ireland is a small country who receive a comparatively large number of refugees which strains resources and dilutes their strong culture.

    This becomes a problem for you and me because Nigerians are a large part of the problem and several abuse the system. Although the issues are with refugees as a whole - Nigerians are easy to spot because of their race. I think their actions have created a stereotype / generalization amongst Irish society which is applied to Africans at large to a certain extent. So an educated, productive African whose intention is to contribute and be a valuable member of society is looked upon negatively.

    Again, I don’t think it is racism but maybe more along the lines of mild xenophobia as your nationality and therefore experience in Ireland is determined by your accent. Blacks who have lived, been educated in Ireland and have an Irish accent will be considered as Irish.

    The problem is that the Irish government has created a politically correct shield around this topic and as a result it is not being addressed. However, this is just creating a social problem within Ireland because the general public wants reform.

    Comment by Zed Peach
    2.
    August 7, 2008
    5:16 pm

    Before those in charge totally lost their minds, Zimbabwe did support a multicultural environment. I got to straddle two worlds. A bursary got me into schools I could have never afforded. But I can tell you that the vast majority of Zimbabweans in lower socio-economic brackets were far from racist. Over time there was a growing resentment towards wealthy white farmers especially, but a lot of that had to do with the attitude some members of that community had with poor black people. See http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0716/1216073109956.html

    I was educated at the University of Zimbabwe, and while there was only a small non-black population, we were a reasonably well integrated bunch.

    I find your generalizations with respect to refugees and Nigerians offensive. With respect to refugees, I acknowledge that there is some abuse of the system, but it has been overblown. I have made a few friends from the refugee community and they have it tough. As for being ‘unproductive’, these are people who want to be allowed to work but are prevented from doing so by law. And how many refugees do you think are in this country. Trust me, not near enough to ‘dilute the culture’. Only about 1% of the 10 - 12% immigrant population are refugees if I’m not mistaken. But what is most offensive is the murderers or paedophiles might be walking next to Irish kids because they pitched up without any passport or documentation seeking asylum. Honestly?

    As for Nigerians being ‘easy to spot’, how? I would love to know how to tell a Nigerian apart from a Ghanian, Togolese, Tswana or Zimbabwean for that matter from a distance. I have had people decide that I’m Nigerian after hours of conversation. Like you, I’m sure they thought Nigerians are easy to spot. Nigerians are just like any other people group. Some of the most impressive doctors and academics, I have met are from Nigeria. I have also met unsavory characters from that country. The same could be said about any other nationality.

    I hope I didn’t give you the impression that I think Irish people as a whole are racist. I think your average Irish person is an incredibly gracious, decent human being. I think the government has struggled in the area of immigration, but they are obviously working at it. And while I think black people with an Irish accent fair better than those who struggle with English, I think there is still a minority who would rather neither lived here.

    The biggest danger going forward, with respect, is the kind of generalization you have made. The vast majority of immigrants are professionals contributing to this countries economy. I hope the pluralism debate is held in light of that.

    Comment by Bryan
    3.
    August 7, 2008
    5:55 pm

    How can anyone remotely intelligent not welcome and embrace a pluralist society. I emigrated to the UK in the 1980’s and found London a fascinating hybrid of cultures. Unfortunately there is a tendency towards ghettoisation of minority groups in London which I fear may arise in Ireland. The only answer is education. There is I suspect an insidious form of racism in Ireland that goes along the lines of ” it happened too quickly”. That due to the rapid economy growth of the last ten years the appearance of non nationals happened overnight. The government have a civic responsibility to ensure that immigrants and refugees are treated with respect and dignity. A decent PR campaign would not go amiss.

    Comment by edel
    4.
    August 7, 2008
    7:06 pm

    Bryan, you seem to support this idea that Mugabe did everything destructive in Zim on his own and the people are all innocent harmless victims of Mugabe. A large portion of the population supports his actions this very day. Yes, a large majority of the population are friendly and just want to get on with life without all the politics BUT there is a very large portion who are very bitter. Why do you ignore that? In 2003 when masses of people were running through the streets of Harare beating people up - who were they? How do you explain 50% of the population voting for Mugabe in the first election? Surely with SADC observers present you cannot intimidate as much as 50% of the population to vote for you.

    I know that Zimbabweans in academic environments are not the bitter type. I know that is the case with UZ - infact I think you will probably know one of my family members.

    I am sorry if my refugee comments offended you. It is not my intention to be narrowminded and I am genuinely interested in reading your counter comments and adjusting my outlook. I might as well have been a refugee for the first year I lived here.

    It might be difficult to spot the Nigerians in a multicultural city like Dublin. However, you must realise that the Nigerian problem is in every single town and city in Ireland. For example, in towns like Limerick there are not too many other African cultures there other than Nigerians hence they are easily identifiable. In slightly bigger towns like Cork, you have traditional Irish neighbourhoods like Shandon Street where there is actual regular conflict because of the number of Nigerians who are seen as “taking over”.

    I wish more of them were Zimbabweans or even South Africans so I could have a conversation with someone from home who I can relate to - but they definately aren’t.

    Bryan, I honestly think you are ignoring the unfavourable statistics. I have heard that the number of Nigerian inmates in several Irish prisons is very disproportional (that might be trash talk so I don’t put much weight on it though). Go stand outside the welfare office during the mornings and tell me if the queue is demographically proportional though? Imagine you are an Irishman looking at that - how can you not generalize? Maybe the situation is being overblown this side but it is being underestimated your side. I realise that there are genuine refugees who are very vunerable and I honestly feel every effort should be made to assist them. My comments are aimed at the ones abusing the system. Do you think the Irish tax payer should pick up the bill for people who are in a difficult situation but do not meet the definition of a refugee?

    With regard to murderers and paedophiles I realise that was an extreme comment. The point I was trying to make with it was the Irish have a right to control who are living amongst them. Do you disagree? I’ve read that a high percentile of asylum seeker applicants do not have a passport or documentation. On top of this it is reported that 90% of asylum seeker applications are based on ficticious grounds. How do you know who they are Bryan? They could possible be running from other issues.

    My comments on the unemployment figure (of approx 5%), strained resources and diluted culture is more accurately aimed at immigration (10 - 12%) as a whole. When 12% of a country is foreign - that is diluting culture. You must also remember this immigration figure was not gradual - it has basically surged over the last 7 years.

    Another statement I hear often is why did Ireland process 250% more asylum seeker applications then UK last year when there is no direct flight to Ireland from the country of origin of majority of the applicants? Surely this suggests Ireland system is less controlled hence a more ideal destination for bogus applicants.

    Bryan, please don’t think that my opinions are aimed at making anyone feel uncomfortable. What I’m typing are not necessarily my own views but what I feel is the general opinion in Irish society from what I have heard. At the same time, it is important for these issues to be discussed without creating politically incorrect no go areas of dicussion & debate - the result of that is festering opinions which result in destructive generalizations.

    Comment by Zed Peach
    5.
    August 7, 2008
    8:51 pm

    I don’t feel I have anything to say regarding Zed’s comments, that Bryan hasn’t already said. Other than to point out that yes, Irish children are walking around with paedophiles - Irish ones. What exactly do you think happens when paedophiles are “put on the sex offenders’ register”? Are they prohibited from walking around their neighbourhoods? Are they prohibited from contact with children? Are they vetted if they accept jobs that don’t involve contact with children or in the medical profession? No (and I’m not suggesting that I think they should; only to say that particular point was incredibly ridiculously dramatic, and can be applied to all nationalities and in all nations).

    Edel I find it difficult to think about integration and “PR campaigns” when it comes to immigrants. Firstly, because I am of the impression that PR is ruining the world (ha ha) but mostly because I think that if any nationality wants to come and live in Ireland, and not become like IRish people, if that’s what integration is - then, have at it. I don’t think there should be any policy of forced integration in the way you say, and, unless I am misinterpreting your response - I would suggest education for the Irish, not for the immigrants, on this particular issue. Integration is a two-way street, involving acceptance and involvement, and cannot be masterminded by any government - especially, I might suggest, ours.

    Comment by Rosemary
    6.
    August 7, 2008
    10:25 pm

    Edel - The only really serious PR campiagn I’ve seen has come from the Road Saftey Authority. Noone else seems convinced they work unfortunately.

    Zed - To quote Chris Rock, ‘black people love them white folk!’ Trust me my friend, the vast majority of black Zimbabweans really liked white people. The 50% result of that first election is thought by most observers to have been inflated by rigging. A lot of those who voted for him were voting for land reform, not against white people.

    You are right that most of us migrants struggle with negative statistics. And there is plenty done by immigrants that is apalling and embarrasing. BUT… the trend is for the negatives to be blown out of proportion and not the other way round. The real refugee story is the guy who gets out of circumstances most of us couldn’t even imagine. He, or she gets here and is treated with suspicion and contempt by many. And the assumption is that the refugee in question is lying. Are there lots of people ‘abusing the system’? Without a doubt. But those economic migrants are often fleeing poverty. It’s not right, but wouldn’t you do the same?

    Rosemary - You’re right, people are people whether they’re Irish, Nigerian, Brazilian, or whatever other nationality.

    Comment by Bryan
    7.
    August 7, 2008
    10:29 pm

    Rosemary, let me clarify. I do not adhere to and do not endorse any “forced integration”. I believe that non nationals should have the right to live here yet retain their own sense of identity and culture. I do not think that assimmilation in to Irish culture means abandoning your core beliefs whether they are Ruandan, Zimbabwean or Polish. In relation to education I meant education in the broad sense of the word; providing education for children of non nationals which is proving successful in many primary schools nationwide and education to Irish people and non nationals about immigration and equality issues. PR campaigns and publicity are necessary evils and frankly are proven tools in shaping peoples perceptions. The more positive messages sent out to people about the benefits of a pluralist society the better. Whilst not advocating a paternalistic approach I do feel that the government has a responsibilty to Irish citizens and non nationals to promote an integrated society. It cannot do this through legislation alone.

    Comment by edel
    8.
    August 7, 2008
    11:12 pm

    “But those economic migrants are often fleeing poverty. It’s not right, but wouldn’t you do the same?”
    Yes I would flee poverty and you can’t blame them for wanting greener pastures. However, when you are a tax payer you don’t want to be handing out free meal tickets to the world - you expect government to make some effective attempt at handling the situation.

    By the way I’m interested to know if you initially tried to practice medicine in Ireland?

    Comment by Zed Peach
    10.
    August 8, 2008
    8:56 am

    Dear All but particularly Edel and Rosemary

    I really have had it up to here with all this “we must welcome the world” stuff and the regular postings of a small coterie of people who, whatever their personal motivations, constantly patronizingly harangue us with this tripe because think they know what is best for us natives.

    Please show some respect for Irish people who do not share the views of “the values of multiculturism” so loudly espoused by, in many instrances, self-hating liberals/professional multiculturists/extreme left/big business/those who think that because the Irish were once immigrants themselves that we have to take every economic migrant who manages to turn up at immigration control or makes it over the border in less than clear circumstances.

    Spare us yet another tedious round of “we must all embrace diversity” because you natives are inherently racist and you MUST favour “multiculturism”.

    Forgive my cynicism but, then again, maybe a PR campaign or yet more “education” would be financially rewarding for some of those professionally involved in the “multiculturalisation” industry.

    David Crowley .

    Comment by David Crowley
    11.
    August 8, 2008
    10:25 am

    Rosemary - Ok, fair enough, i don’t want some sort of ‘forced integration’ where people are forced to do things they outright dont want to do, but on the other hand, do we want a situation like in France where third generation immigrants (ie, their grandparents arrived in france 40-50 years ago) still can’t speak French, or like in parts of the UK where Muslims think that Sharia law should be superior to the legislated law? You don’t seem to have much respect for soverereignty and cultural beliefs which have taken thousands of years to form but which you’d quite gladly see wiped out overnight in a wave of mass immigration. You’re ’survival of the fittest’ style argument might hold water but for the fact that you’re hugely in favour of an asylum system which actually demands the opposite.

    I’m all in favour of immigration to Ireland provided it is controllable, manageable and sustainable (financially and culturally). This is provided that the immigrants adhere to current Irish social/cultural norms and traditions, whilst also obviously being able to keep many of their indigenous cultural beliefs, provided that they are in keeping with our laws and society.

    Comment by Owen
    12.
    August 8, 2008
    4:53 pm

    David - You have the opportunity to share why you think the influx of different people into Ireland is bad/dangerous. I would actually like to understand your position. Unfortunately, though your comment expresses your frustration, you have not helped people like me understand your thinking. Without malice or venom, can you help me understand?

    Edel - I agree that if the government is going to take a stance on something, a strong PR campaign is the way to go. I think part of the leading involves making people aware of issues. The media has done a better job on that front than the government unfortunately.

    Zed - fair point. And like you, I wish the system were more efficient. If people are clearly lying, I wish their case could be heard, decided, and those people deported within a couple of months. As things stand, I know of people who have been in the asylum system for the last 3 years. Having taken so long to decide their fate, I think it is unjust to deport them. And even if they are allowed to stay, if you weren’t allowed to work for 3 - 5 years, you are going to find it very difficult to hold down a job.

    About that link, fair. But The vast majority of those people are EU citizens. These are not asylum seekers.

    Owen - I’m with you. I don’t want to see parallel migrant communities to be formed. But I don’t think that’s what Rosemary was advocating. I think her view, like mine, is that true integration only happens if it is the result of people being made to feel like part of that society and not through ‘thou shalt integrate’ legislation.

    And like you, I think Irish law should trump any laws/beliefs that immigrants come with. And again, like you, I think immigration needs to be controlled and sustainable. I think that happens when there are smart policies in place, and when the value of the immigrants is highlighted.

    The difficulty with integration is that it is a two-way street. It will only happen in a conducive environment and it doesn’t take a lot for there to be misunderstanding.

    Comment by Bryan
    13.
    August 8, 2008
    5:03 pm

    “As things stand, I know of people who have been in the asylum system for the last 3 years. Having taken so long to decide their fate, I think it is unjust to deport them.”

    I disagree there. The system is inefficient thats the problem. Those people should be deported if they are not here on legitimate grounds. You find that difficult because there is a personal element to your opinion which is understandable but not necessarily just.

    Some trials for murderers, rapists etc. can take up to 3 years to pan through the evidence and get a verdict (and I’m not suggesting some sort of link to asylum seekers there so don’t get too worked up Rosemary). Your logic suggests that these people should not be punished because of the time frame.

    Comment by Zed Peach
    14.
    August 8, 2008
    5:12 pm

    Zed, there is a legal concept of getting your case heard in a timely fashion. There are real criminals who have been let off because it took so long for their case to be heard.

    You’re right, I’m not applying cold logic to this issue. But what’s that thing Shakespeare said about mercy? Besides, as a white southern African you of all people should know that cold justice is not always the way to go. Cold justice would have seen many white South Africans incarcerated and South Africa’s struggle for independence protracted. In Zimbabwe, cold justice would have seen Ian Smith put away for crimes against humanity.

    Besides, these people who are fleeing poverty under the guise of asylum are not making history. Many people groups have fled poverty in the past. Isn’t that why there’s an ‘undocumented’ Irish population in America?

    I’m not condoning it. I do think people should abide by rules. But I think there should also be compassion in acting on those rules.

    Also, your tone suggests that your first assumption of assylum seekers is that they are bogus. The worst thing about the skepticism towards the asylum process is that genuine people are treated with suspicion which is really really sad.

    Comment by Bryan
    15.
    August 8, 2008
    5:29 pm

    Bryan, there’s one thing that does really bother me about the whole Irish asylum system/process - if you’re looking for genuine asylum, so as to escape a genuine political or ethnic or religous issue (ie a non economic issue), then why on earth would you come all the way to Ireland, given its geographical location and lack of any historical inward migration from Africa or Asia, and assumingly with the climate, language, culture being so different to the original residence? The only answer that one could rationally come to is that (a) the system is considered easy to gain residency via compared to other European countries, and/or (b) the system is very (overly?) generous once you get access to it. I mean, to get to Ireland from the vast majority of African or Asian countries involves transit through an awful lot of other countries. One would assume that people are going to this extra effort and expense in the hopes of reaping a greater reward at some stage down the line. As such, its not unfair for many people to question the true motives of them.

    Comment by Owen
    16.
    August 8, 2008
    7:22 pm

    Your idea that if enough time passes they should be allowed in is ludacris. The difference between the murderer example and the asylum seeker example is that the unlawful act would be letting the bogus asylum seeker have his freedom in Ireland (that is what is on trial). So if you put it in context of the murderer it would be like saying - enough time has passed so you are free to kill. At the same time the very reason there are delays is due to the number of applicants, more applicants means a longer delay. With your line of thinking the system should be undermined as the problem increases - so your thinking promotes its ineffectiveness. Think about the idea objectively and don’t let your friends faces pop into your mind.

    Your Southern African examples are not applicable. You have highlighted extremes and exceptions of the problem . At the same time although morally wrong the actions of those people were lawful at the time they were carried out and they believed they were doing was “for their country”. I’m not saying it was right or anything, I’m just pointing out it isn’t entirely relevant to what we are discussing.

    Where we disagree is you focus on the one extreme of immigrants and asylum seekers just as I focus on the other extreme. You are wrong in that you refuse to acknowledge my extreme as having much of an impact on society. The ones I am talking about are not the ones playing for refugee soccer teams and getting involved etc. - those are the guys you are promoting. As things stand, I know of people who have been in the asylum system for the last 3 years. Having taken so long to decide their fate, I think it is unjust to deport them. You are a doctor so am I wrong to assume that naturally your friends will be of a certain intelligence level and productiveness - therefore your sample is biased and not an accurate reflection. Here are some facts:
    - 39% of free rental allowance seekers are immigrants at a cost of €150 million to the State (figure on the increase)
    - 17.4% of dole claimants in Ireland in July were foreign nationals
    - Foreign nationals are 8 times more likely to attempt fraudulent child welfare claims than Irish born parents
    - Childcare supplement payments for foreign nationals will be up to €140 million in 2008

    These are a only few statistics I have seen in the past few days. They are all from legitimate sources (most from Irish Times articles) . You cannot continue to promote the poster boys of immigrants and refugees in light of these statistics. They are becoming a strain on Irish society and having a largely negative impact. Why should Irish tax payers have to pay these bills on an largely UNPRODUCTIVE sector of society? You say they want to work but aren’t allowed to. If they work, they take much needed jobs as a result of the recession. If they don’t work they are an unproductive expense. Either way, they are going to have a negative impact whether unproductive or expensive . I think the statistics prove this is not being blown out of proportion.

    Comment by Zed Peach
    17.
    August 8, 2008
    8:33 pm

    Owen - That’s a good point. And the truth is that I have never really investigated that, but I will. Far a couple people that I know, their first concern is being in an English speaking country because they either speak the language, or it is spoken in their home country. After that, some people decide that they don’t want to live in the UK because of perceived crime, social problems, or they think it will be too big and intimidating a place.

    But it’s a good point and I’ll look into it.

    Zed - Those immigrant statistics mainly represent people in new EU accession states. Of the total immigrant population, 70% are from within the EU. They are entitled to those benefits in the same way that Irish people in France are entitled to the same.

    But the truth Zed is that we just see the world very differently. I’m a little surprised by your perspective to be honest.

    You can empathize with a member of apartheid South Africa’s secret police beating and killing people out of duty to his country. But you can’t empathise with a guy from Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Togo or the Congo who risks everything he has to get to Ireland so he can provide for his family in a way he couldn’t in his own country?

    I’m blessed. I have a fancy qualification as does my wife. I have the option of living in Ireland, but I could probably get permission to live in Australia. Canada and a couple of other places. Yes, my wife and I worked hard to get to that position, but we both had advantages that other people didn’t.

    With respect, I think its hubris to assume that one’s station in life is solely the result of merit when over 70% of the world is dirt poor. And if you realize that but by the grace of God (or fate, chance, luck, or whatever else you believe) you could easily be the vulnerable one, the least you can do is show a little understanding. Isn’t it?

    At the end of the day though my friend, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    Comment by Bryan
    18.
    August 8, 2008
    9:49 pm

    “empathize with a member of apartheid South Africa’s secret police beating and killing people out of duty to his country”
    Please don’t try brand me as “one of those” whites. I do not emphathize with those people - I was just trying to prove a point.

    I was never a racist growing up and I was not concious of political issues. I couldn’t have cared less about that sort of stuff having grown up in a family who. However, I certainly became aware of the racial divide and the differences between us thanks to post-1999 Zimbabwean politics. Before I came to Ireland, I had incidents where I felt uncomfortable in Africa as a result of the colour of my skin. If Zimbabweans could force a change over from white rule (against great obstacles), why can they not do it with Mugabe’s regime? The only answer I can think of is that they don’t mind his policies as much as they minded white rule.

    I read your article where Richard differentiates between the good and bad blacks. I knew characters like that and I thought they were thick skulled. However, if I am honest with myself I definately find that scenario playing out in me to a certain degree. I blame the lower socio-economic masses for what I have experienced in my life time - I see them as the bitter guys who have labelled all whites as thieves who have taken their potential wealth from them. I see them as the reason I don’t feel secure or welcome in the country I have grown up and lived in most of my life. For that same reason I find I don’t mind doctors, professionals, the educated etc. but I find myself resisting anyone who could possibly be fleeing to Ireland from the lower socio-economic bracket in Zimbabwe. Hence, the “good” and the “bad”.

    I don’t wish harm on them or anything - I just feel they should stay and reap their potential wealth since it is now up for grabs as a result of their actions. I feel they made my life unpleasant due to the fact I am from European decent, when they fall on their face, why should Europe be so accomodating of them?

    I realise it is a destructive generalization and most of them fleeing to Europe do not hold that opinion at all and infact are not from the bracket described (air flights are expensive). I see contradictions with it but unfortunately my mind, reasoning and logic cannot overcome my emotions on this topic. It’s a very bitter feeling when you cannot make your home your home! Zimbabwe has created an “us” versus “them” type mentality in me which was not present before.

    I have applied this thinking to every African possibly fleeing from the lower socio-economic bracket. It’s shocking - I know! At least you can see where my lack of empathy comes from though.

    Comment by Zed Peach
    19.
    August 8, 2008
    10:48 pm

    Zed, I promise you that I’m not trying to paint you as anything. People are people, and for better or worse, you need to judge them on merit. I don’t have a ‘those’ whites group in my head. I just call it as I se it with individuals.

    Mugabe is where he is because he learnt from and adapted Smith’s methods. Less than 5 white people have been killed since things started going wrong in Zimbabwe. 20 000 Ndebeles were massacred in the 80s, and maybe thousands of Shonas and Ndebeles post 1999. The violence isn’t racial. White people are much safer than black people in both rural and urban Zimbabawe. It takes a hec of a lot more black deaths for the international community to react.

    I’m sorry you feel the way you do Zed. I admire your honesty though. Just so you know, there is no real difference between myself and your average asylum seeker.

    Comment by Bryan
    20.
    August 8, 2008
    11:44 pm

    To be honest most of it is mental and I cannot apply my logic to real life situations. I have met 2 Zimabwean refugees here so far - each time I meet one I exempt them from my theory as being different. I really do feel like they are my fellow countrymen and I enjoy the conversations.

    It’s weird way to think but the good thing is this bitter outlook is definately fading as I miss Zim less and as Ireland begins to feel more like home.

    Comment by Zed Peach
    21.
    August 9, 2008
    2:12 pm

    Dear all, but particularly David Crowley (furniture-maker? program manager? wikipedia says you are a US Democrat),

    Actually I correct that, this is just to David Crowley. If my positive feelings towards multiculturalism, my “self-hating” liberal views towards immigration, are, as you seem to suggest, ridiculous - what would you have the Government do? What would you suggest? Closed borders?

    Or - and here’s a novel idea - why don’t we only allow people in who have skills, who can fill jobs that are currently not being filled by Irish people. Say, accountants, or doctors, or nurses. But then (and here’s the rub) these people, particularly if they are black Africans, report that any jobs for which they apply respond with “sorry, you need Irish experience”.

    Another black African woman, reported in one of Roisin Ingle’s Being There articles in the Irish Times, that she had applied for a job twice - one with her African name and one with a fake, Irish one. Surprisingly, her African name didn’t get a look in.

    So if immigrants are, as - and forgive me if I’m wrong - only bringing trouble, what would you suggest we do? It’s people like you who are preventing integration, meaningful dialogue and a way forward.

    Rosemary Mac Cabe (not on wikipedia, sadly)

    Comment by Rosemary
    22.
    August 10, 2008
    5:36 pm

    Rosemary Mac Cabe:

    Heres a simple example to illustrate our frustration. If majority of the Irish public didn’t like the minority forcing them to, say, drink orange juice everyday (I hate orange juice) then why would it be our responsibility to explain and give reasons for why we don’t like it, we just don’t. It is our country, and it is our right to feel that way! Unfortunately, most Irish leaders decisions don’t represent their people!

    The majority of Irish don’t want a multicultural Ireland. In moderation it is fine, but not to the extent it is at now.

    As for Bryan’s comment that it is an inevitable end and necessary for prosperity - stop convincing yourself that massive immigration and a multicultural Ireland is better for us commoners who don’t really know what is best for us. We only need foreigners to the extent to which there is not an Irishman available or able to fill his place. We certainly don’t need masses of other cultures here - most of whom don’t have any special skills or talents.

    Comment by Anonymous
    23.
    August 10, 2008
    8:28 pm

    I never suggested that multiculturalism would be better for “commoners”; I don’t even know what a commoner is, but if you consider yourself one, you have my sympathies.

    My point is that there is one world - our borders are defined because of political necessity, but I personally don’t believe that gives us the right to allow or disallow people to enter or leave. Ireland doesn’t belong to “us”, any more than it belongs to any other person, no matter their nationality, who has Irish citizenship.

    I consider myself patriotic, and protective of Ireland’s culture and traditions, but I also consider myself a libertarian (yes, take the low blow, you know you want to) and, really, the less restrictions [on anything], the better, in my view. Who gives me - or you - the right to keep people from enjoying the supposed advantages that come with living here? How would you feel if you were denied the right to go and live in, say, Australia?

    What’s the logic behind being against multiculturalism? Spell it out for me, because I clearly do not understand.

    Comment by Rosemary
    24.
    August 10, 2008
    11:07 pm

    By commoner I mean a person whose daily life gets affected in a negative way by liberal policies. Most supporters of pro-immigration, multiculturalism are either people who want to migrate here or people whose daily lives the decision does not really affect (go stand for a photo with “them” and then get the hell back to your country club). For example, it would be very difficult to find an Irish taxi driver who wants more Nigerians in Ireland.

    Heres some logic: there are some ugly places in this world and Ireland is relatively peaceful at the moment with a good standard of living. We overcame vicious religious conflict in the country. Why do you want to potentially import new social problems from all over the world as an experiment? Do you think every country in the world and its inhabitants are as nice and moral as the people you encounter each day? Who are you to take that risk for the entire Irish public (who would all be subjected to it)?

    Funny you should mention Australia because I think their policies should be a model for Ireland. If there is a need for skilled migration into their country they will have a controlled “recruitment” drive in SPECIFIC countries around the world. You won’t find them opening up their borders for 6 months of the year to anything that happens to crawl off the plane. Ireland has no where near as much control and isn’t strict enough with the rules.

    Your new age idea of no borders would be great in the future (just like solar powered flying cars) but it is a bad and impractical idea given the current condition of the world. At the moment, your ideas would just subject us all to an invasion (yes invasion) from the 3rd world and with it will come their problems. You have your head in the clouds and need to come back down to earth and be more realistic. You’ll be the type complaining in years to come saying things like “This was a terrible mistake” “But how could I have known?” “I wish I could turn back time”. Stop having so much faith in the world - it isn’t like a movie with a wonderful ending, it will let you down!

    Don’t take things like a high standards of education, low crime rates (including violent crime on unrelated 3rd parties e.g. armed hijackings, armed house robberies etc.) relative efficiency of services etc. for granted because they can change with the “urbanization” or rather “ghettoization” of countries like Ireland if you opened up its borders. There is a reason people want to change their entire lives and come here, namely they come from a worse environment where lower standards are the norm which means (exceptions aside - don’t make a list of doctors and lawyers cause they are a minority) their actions could lower the standards in Ireland. Do you think Irish government has a bottomless pot of tax payers money to keep handing out where different ideas fail? No, its going to have an increasingly negative impact on you as there is less to go around!

    Comment by Anonymous
    25.
    August 11, 2008
    2:13 pm

    Anonymous - stop convincing yourself that massive immigration and a multicultural Ireland is better for us commoners who don’t really know what is best for us

    You don’t really believe that I’m trying to convince myself of anything do you? As for ‘us commoners’… So now I’m some elite looking down on the average Irish person? Seriously?

    And then there’s Do you think every country in the world and its inhabitants are as nice and moral as the people you encounter each day? Who are you to take that risk for the entire Irish public…You won’t find them opening up their borders for 6 months of the year to anything that happens to crawl off the plane…their actions could lower the standards in Ireland.

    It’s language and ideas like that which make make a constructive discussion on the merits for and against immigration and pluralism difficult. Believe it or not, the vast majority of those people from the third world you mention, people like me, are decent human beings.

    Rosemary - I’m with you. I think borders should be there for security purposes. But like you, I think there should be much less restrictions on the ability of law abiding people to travel and work in different places.

    Comment by Bryan
    26.
    August 11, 2008
    2:59 pm

    I was not refering to you as the elite Bryan; I was refering to PC liberal leaders like our president. Out of touch and in power - a great combination for a leader don’t you think?

    “Constructive discussion” - is that a new PC term to keep the direction heading in the result you want? Typical, ignore empirical evidence and claim it is an excuse to generalize. Meanwhile, when you are talking about macro issues such as immigration you cannot base policies on exceptions; for policies to be effective they must be based on empirical evidence. Those points are not unfounded. Use UK and France as an example. Not only do they have newly formed ghettos but there is a story every week on a murder, potential bomber etc. Don’t ignore them because they don’t suit you.

    Comment by Anonymous
    27.
    August 11, 2008
    3:21 pm

    Anonymous - Newly formed? The UK and France have had African and Asian immigrants since the nineteenth century. Have there been problems. Yes. But there have also been benefits, some more tangible than others.

    As for ‘constructive discussion’, that’s my term. It means that even people who disagree can talk through the merits of their differing arguments.

    Look, as far as I can tell, you have two fora to discuss these issues. On blogs where the majority agree with you, or places like this where they may not. Very few of the people who share your position have wanted to discuss the merits of your arguments in a constructive way. I can’t make you do that, but the more you keep throwing out generalizations, insults and non-specific sound bites, the worse you come off. The more your position is associated with prejudice, the less palatable both your opinions and those who hold them become.

    I actually want find out why you think that the influx of immigrants here is such a bad thing. Thus far, you haven’t really said anything that holds water as far as I can tell. I think that’s an unfortunate wasted opportunity.fora

    Comment by Bryan
    28.
    August 11, 2008
    4:07 pm

    Fair enough, I will try and talk about some concerns with it in a “constructive” manner. A controlled multicultural environment in moderation is not a bad idea and I believe it has its merits.

    Maybe this will hold some water: if a person moves to Ireland they will naturally encounter some difficulties when they first arrive. I was reading an interesting article the other day claiming that on average most immigrants arrive in Ireland with €5 000. How far is that going to get you? Immigrants were also quoted as complaining they struggled to find jobs and African applicants were being ignored for jobs. With that in mind, once the €5 000 runs out for your average immigrant is it a fair assumption they will depend on our welfare system or turn to crime? Not ideal - immigrants should arrive with sufficient capital to support themselves which apparently is not the case for your average immigrant.

    The capital (Dublin) should be multicultural because it is a business environment and different people will diverse perspectives etc. is constructive in a business context. I disagree with a multicultural Ireland though. In the smaller towns the Irish culture can easily be threatened by immigrants. I want my grandchildren to grow up within the same culture I did, in an Irish Catholic environment. In small towns and schools it does not take large numbers of immigrants to dilute those principles and that is what scares me.

    Comment by Anonymous
    29.
    August 11, 2008
    7:05 pm

    Rosemary

    Excuse my delay in replying. What I do for a living is my own business but I will confirm that I am not a US democrat nor am I a member of any lobby group on nor do I have a professional interest in the subject of immigration. I am just an ordinary joe who is concerned about the dangers of Irish society being overwhelmed by the “melting pot” of a myriad of culures.

    Anonymous has set out many of the points that I had intended to make in reply to your post. However, perhaps you might tell me why multiculurisation is good for Ireland. As a believer in open borders, you obviously reject the concept of the nation state ( and apparently Bryan does as well ) yet you state that you are protective of Irish traditions and culture. Forgive me but there is an apparent contradiction there. How are you going to protect Irish culture if you will allow open borders and as a consequence a tsunami of immigration ?

    In enlightening us on the overall alleged advantages of multiculturisation, please address the issues of whether or not it is good for Ireland to have people here who condone cultural practices such as gential mutilation, obliging women to wear the hijab irrespective of their personal wishes, a lack of work ethic, an acceptance of bribery and corruption in society provided it secures what one wants on an individual level. Further, perhaps you might explain whether or not it will be to our society’s advantage for Muslim youngsters to be afforded a wholly Islamic education. Might there be some downside in this in the future - will it promote integration or segregation ?

    You cited anecdotal evidence from a journalistic piece as evidence that Africans are being discriminated against in Ireland. But where is the empirical evidence for your statement ? On the contrary, it seems to me that Irish people have been incredibly accommodating of the huge influx of foreigners, most of whom are obviously economic migrants ( but some unfortunately have been masquarading as asylum seekers, aided and encouraged as they have been by professional “multiculturists” and those with vested interests in encouraging the rapidly changing demographic ).

    You accuse people like me of “preventing integration, meaningful dialogue and a way forward (sic)” Well I would hope that we could have that dialogue here.

    I really am sick, however, of people hectoring and haranging us endlessly on the benefits of multiculturism and screaming racism at every turn and hurling abuse at people who happen to disagree with them.

    It doesn’t make for meaningful dialogue, now does it? And finally a question for you ? Are you “professionally” involved in the multiculturisation of Ireland ?

    I await your reply with interest.

    David Crowley

    Comment by David Crowley
    30.
    August 11, 2008
    7:43 pm

    Anonymous - I agree with you that people who come to Ireland need to have adequate finances. I have assumed all along that you have no problems with people from the EU in Ireland since Irish people can do the same thing within the EU. As for non-EU people, you have no idea how difficult it is to obtain a visa into Ireland. One of the requirements is the need to demonstrate adequate finances and living money for the stay.

    With respect to the character of small town Ireland, I empathise with you. Were our places reversed, I would probably also want my children to grow up in a similar environment to my own. But the world is changing so rapidly, and I doubt that anyone can stop it.

    Your concerns are definitely genuine. And there will be challenges that a changing Ireland will face. My hope is that migrants bring benefits as well as challenges, and I think that has been the case. And once people have settled in Dublin, it is only a matter of time before they decide to live in other parts of the country. You can’t close off places to certain people.

    What do you think the government should do?

    David - I think travel restrictions should be drastically downscaled. I’m don’t reject the concept of the nation state per se.

    To be honest, I’m very disappointed by your comment. This post was in part a response to a comment you made previously. I was hoping that you would spell out what would be wrong with a multicultural Ireland. Instead you have decided to get Rosemary to defend conventional wisdom (that diversity is generally a good thing).

    As for the generalizations… I don’t know any immigrant who condones female genital mutilation. It is practiced by a small minority in Africa. As for the hijab, I think women who want to wear it should be allowed and those who do not should not have to. Again, most Asians and Africans I know hold a similar view.

    If when given the opportunity to highlight the dangers of pluralism the best you can do is paint foreigners as sexist, corrupt and altogether depraved… if that is the best that you can do, maybe there is a reason why few people are listening to your camp?

    Again, I really want to have this discussion with you and find out what your concerns are. We can have that conversation, or just carry on speaking past each other. You choose.

    Comment by Bryan
    31.
    August 11, 2008
    9:36 pm

    “And once people have settled in Dublin, it is only a matter of time before they decide to live in other parts of the country.”
    You are unaware of the extent of migration to Ireland. There are foreigners now in every small town and province in this country. I live in a small town in Munster (only industry is wool & a little bit of tourism) but alot of businesses have foreigners working here (Tescos and others) and in my grand daughters junior school about 1/3 of the class are foreign. Bryan please travel to the different areas of Ireland and get a more accurate idea of why everyone is complaining.

    I think government should just control who they let in. I honestly don’t think people have problems with professional people. Professionals make the cities cities and increased competition in business and professions can be constructive for the economy. Please tell me how increased competition in manual labour etc. is constructive for improving Ireland? All that happens is people work longer for less and Irish unemployment figures go up.

    In these small towns we seem to receive people of not much use to anyone, they don’t contribute too much and if anything just make Ireland less Irish. You can use the human rights argument here but as far as I’m concerned we should not have to tolerate that type of migration. There is a difference between migrants simply using Ireland and migrants contributing to Ireland.

    What should government do? Become like Australia. Watch an episode of Nothing to Declare on sky and see how effective their authorities are. And Bryan this is not an African issue, yes Africans are a large part of the problem, but it definately an EU issue as much.

    I would like to point out though that there are huge numbers of Nigerians here, in this little Irish town in the middle of nowhere. I saw you mentioned earlier you can’t spot one - we’ll if you hear them talking (which they seem to do often, at high volumes) they have an American/Jamaican accent and I don’t know of many African countries with an accent like that.

    Comment by Anonymous
    32.
    August 11, 2008
    10:43 pm

    Yes I realise Jamaicans would have a Jamaican accent but it is different.

    Another concern is Irish society is community orientated. It used to be to the extent where it would revolve around the parishes and that still happens to a certain degree. In a way thats what makes different members of the community decent because the community base is in a way a form of control as to how we treat one another. The new foreigners here don’t have that respect towards others because they have not grown up within the community. Over the last 5 years I have seen a man hit a woman with a closed fist in public, a child defecating infront of his mom in public and the other day my wife was told to “f$&* off” for asking a 10 year old Nigerian boy to keep the noise level down in the bank she works at. You won’t find that type of complete lack of respect coming from the Irish in this town! It is what creates negativity towards multiculturalism.

    Comment by Anonymous
    33.
    August 11, 2008
    10:54 pm

    Bryan

    As blogger I accept your right to criticise my post. However, given the contents of your reply I wonder are we now really finding out how far apart we really are on this issue ? If the discussion is getting a little uncomfortable maybe we are getting to the core issues.

    My post was addressed to Rosemary as she was accusing me of preventing meaningful dialogue. If I did ask her to comment on why we should accept multiculturism, is that not reasonable ? After all, why not ask the proponents of this relatively new ( to Ireland) view to argue its merits ? I am willing to listen and maybe even learn. Maybe she ( and you ) will even convince me that I should accept all this immigration, although I have to say what I have heard and read to date in the various posts makes me doubt it. Hopefully you will begin to understand my view when you read further.

    You have chosen to reply on Rosemary’s behalf. I note that you have not addressed the point of defending indigenous tradition and culture in a tidal wave of migration at all. However, then again, and I mean no disrespect by this, I would not expect you as a non-native to do so. On this, however Rosemary had stated that she was protective of Irish culture and traditions while at the same time advocating open borders. I just wondered how she could justify that stance and whether it was valid.

    You categorise the points made by me as generalisations and extreme. Admittedly, the cultural practices and views noted are not to be encouraged but you cannot deny that they are practised held by some people. I would also question your assertion that it is only a minority of Muslims who believe that a woman should be obliged to wear the hijab. Maybe some Muslims might care to comment.

    My point here is is not to portray foreigners as sexist, corrupt or depraved ( we are all human beings with our own strengths and failings ) as you seem to suggest but to point that there may be downsides to multiculturism too. It is not all upside and these realities must be faced and not glossed over in favour of pc platitudes and “comfortable” debates.

    As far as I am concerned Ireland is for Irish people. Pakistan is for Pakistanis, Nigeria is for Nigerians and so on. I accept that some migration is inevitable but I do not believe in making the world just one big “melting pot” of cultures in the process, watering down and destroying what makes us distinct as individual human beings, given our own personal traits, views and cultural practices.

    Irish culture developed on the island of Ireland and it is the heartland of that culture. Culture is an integral part of a person’s identity and being and to put people from a myriad of cultures in Ireland within a very short period of time and without any consultation of the Irish people and expect us to interact smoothly is, I fear, unrealistic at best and at worst a recipe for social strife, given cultural differences, the newness of it all, competition for limited resources, et cetera.

    Irish patriots fought for our freedom from foreign domination and to make the point that we are culturally distinct and deserving of that freedom. I, for one, am not in favour of the Irish people becoming one amorphous mass of humanity with no clear distinguishing features from any other nation. Ireland’s position is very different to Canada, the US, UK or Australia and any analogies with these countries is inappropriate.

    You state that the conventional wisdom is that diversity is good. Maybe it is conventional in liberal and media circles but from anecdotal evidence, I am not so sure that it is generally accepted among the wider population in Ireland to be the case. Although we have accepted large numbers of foreigners coming to Ireland, it does not mean that we are comfortable with the phenomenon of mass migration to our shores.

    Studies have repeatedly shown that there is a breakdown in community values and lower levels of trust in multicultural societies and I wonder whether or not you or Rosemary would care to address that point.

    I would respectfullyu dispute your assertion that my view is that of a small minority. It is just that those in the Irish Times, the D4 set and the multiculturalisation industry don’t get to hear it that often ( or maybe, heaven forbid, even want to hear it ! ) but it is authentic and held by a lot more people than just me.

    So, over to you ( and Rosemary ? ) now !

    David Crowley

    p.s. I am sure that Rosemary is well able to “defend” herself and I would really like to know if she is professionally involved in “multiculturalizing” Ireland but maybe she will stay mum on that and instead accuse me still further of base motives !

    Comment by David Crowley
    34.
    August 12, 2008
    12:39 am

    Hypocrite!

    You say multiculturalism was never questioned and was viewed as a positive thing in Zimbabwe. You thought the rest of the world was the same and are shocked with Irish dislike of the topic. Like Zed mentions multiculturalism in Zimbabwe led to its failure!!! First of all your president killed 20 000 (your figure) of the opposing indigenous culture the Matabele as soon as he came into power. Then the country turned on the whites because they had all the land - killed 5 (your figure), injured plenty and displaced them from their homes and farms. Zimbabwe can’t even tolerate alternative political views with thousands (your figure) of Shonas and Ndebele being killed in post-1999 violence. These types of actions led to loss of investor confidence and sanctions which puts Zimbabwean unemployment at over 80%, inflation at what about 9 000 000%. Great example to use for the model multicultural country Bryan!

    In your response to Kevin Myers article you mentioned that Africans need more opportunities and that the difference between you and the starving Africans were opportunities. Yet you will promote migration to Ireland, no borders etc which results in an increasing unemployment rate in Ireland particularly for manual labourers - so in other words you don’t mind if there are less opportunities for the Irish. Do you think the Irish are too blessed and it is time to undo some of this and hand it over to Africa?

    You often state there were Zimbabweans smarter and more talented than you but they didn’t receive the same opportunity you did. You also mention you got to experience both worlds and attended private schools through scholarships. Weren’t those scholarships available to Zimbabwean students at large? By obtaining them didn’t that mean that you were cream of the crop? Was the scholarship not handed out annually? Are there really that many other potential rocket scientists with more talent than you in Zimbabwe considering this.

    I can see the signs of someone promoting their own interests. You glorify your ironic arguments and trample on others saying they “hold no water”. You hold certain things like Zimbabwe, immigration, asylum seekers & immigration on pedastils when in reality they do not have an almight halo around them.

    Hmm I think a comment you directed at an Irish man on this post more accurately describes yourself:
    “The more your position is associated with prejudice, the less palatable both your opinions and those who hold them become.”

    Comment by Mike Finch
    35.
    August 12, 2008
    1:13 am

    Mike - Ouch. That’s a little harsh, isn’t it?

    With respect to Zimbabwe, I still maintain that it was a plural society in which differences in background were largely well tolerated and even appreciated. What happened in Matebeleland and then in the nation as a whole later on was politically motivated rather than ethnic violence. Were there problems? Yes. But the country was never thought of as a homogenous entity and although there were some scars from the colonial period, most people I think recognized the value of living in a plural society.

    And then there is the issue of my having recieved a scholarship. In a country of 12million, there were maybe a hundred scholarchips of that type a year. There are advantages that come from growing up in a middle class home. One is an aspiration gap with people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. The other is the fact that well off people identify more with middle income families than with poorer ones. And the truth is that when the odds are 1 in 12million, chance is just as big a factor as talent. I was far from being at the top of my graduating class in university. A dear friend who was a fellow medical student had to raise two younger siblings and study full-time as well. You can choose to believe me or not, but I assure you that there are plenty of people I left behind whose potential towers over mine. Is it that hard to imagine lots of potential rocket scientists living in rural sub-Saharan Africa?

    Why am I in favour of immigration? It gives people the opportunity to work hard, make something of themselves, and provide for their families back home. Last year, total aid worldwide was around US$100billion. Remittances, money sent back to developing countries as a result of the immigration I favour, were 3 times that figure. And it was more effective. Besides the money, the work experience and qualifications gained by those who decide to return to their homelands is invaluable. Sometimes those expertise could not be achieved any other way.

    Do I care about vulnerable Irish people? Read this blog and find out. Off course I do. Perhaps my loyalties are a little skewed because people here have a saftey net whereas in some parts of the world, in place of that net is a tomb.

    Am I promoting my positions? I don’t think so. If I am, that is not my intention. My intention is to hold those positions up for public scrutiny and comment. Readers can decide for themselves.

    Your comment came across to me as an angry one. If you want a serious discussion, great, let’s have it. But no more name calling.

    You and I obviously come from opposite ends of the world. I am trying to understand your end. Instead of attacking me, maybe you could do the same?

    Comment by Bryan
    36.
    August 12, 2008
    1:31 am

    Anonymous - Do you really think that bad behaviour from young people is the result of, or exclusive to immigrants? I’ve heard all sorts of explanations, ranging from the breakdown of the traditional familty structure to video games, but not immigrants and their culture.

    At then end of the day, I think you have some legitimate concerns. I guess I just see different causes and solutions to you.

    One of my favourite quotations comes from Matin Luther King Jr. and it is: We are all caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied into a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

    The truth is that people in difficult parts of the world will always try to move to better ones. As a result, I don’t think any prosperous region will be spared immigration. As such, I think the way forward is to figure out how best to harness the good and overcome the bad that come with it.

    But I realise that does not really help with any of your concerns.

    David - I apologise for speaking on Rosemary’s behalf. She is well capable of speaking for herself.

    All the same, shall you and I decide to agree to disagree?

    Comment by Bryan
    37.
    August 12, 2008
    6:57 am

    Bryan

    You suggested that those of us who disagree with the current fad of multiculturism set forth our views. I had accordingly responded.

    Perhaps you or Rosemary would be kind enough to address the various points set out in my last post instead of simply stating “…, shall you and I decide to agree to disagree?”

    I can see that you are under pressure trying to deal with all the various postings of those of us who would question the perceived “wisdom” that multiculturism can only be good for Ireland However, in my opinion your reply to my post is a cop-out of any real debate.

    David Crowley

    Comment by David Crowley
    38.
    August 12, 2008
    9:46 am

    I’m surprised you feel I’m copping out David. I thought I had addressed most of your questions in my response to Anonymous.

    Look, as I stated in my response to Anonymous, multiculturalism will has its draw backs. It comes with challenges in the same way that modernity throws up challenges as does just about anything else. The big question is whether the benefits outweigh the challenges.

    For as long as people have been around, migration has been a solution to a variety of problems. It is human nature to want to move on when a particular location becomes undesirable. It is only in recent times when that option has been taken off the table for most people. I think that’s a shame because I believe there is a moral responsibility for those who have to help those who have not. I agree that there need to be checks and balances, but the potential to do good through hosting other people groups is huge. In terms of development, remittances last year were 3 times the size of global aid.

    These different groups will no doubt potentially pose some challenges to the host community. There are two ways around those problems - try and deal with or minimize them, or just don’t allow migrants to enter in the first place.

    I don’t think the second is wise. More open, rather than closed countries tend to do better. The United States and Britain, for all their problems are in a better place than most of the rest of the world. Even China has seen the benefits of opening up more to the rest of the world. Add to that the fact that Ireland needs all the foreign direct investment she can get - most, if not all countries need that. If different people groups from multinational companies do not feel welcome here, if their families and different cultures are not accepted to some degree, then this becomes a less attractive investment destination.

    I understand your desire to maintain Irish culture. I may not be a native of this country, but I am a native of my own. Like Irish culture, ours took a beating from colonialism. And then there was the influence of more liberal foreign people living and traveling into and out of the country. All that put a strain on our culture. But television and music also had a huge influence. And there’s not much you can do about tv and music.

    The fact is that culture is dynamic, not static. The world is shrinking and nothing that you can do is going to keep Irish culture as you knew it growing up, just as I can’t keep my culture static. Whereas your mother was probably a full-time housewife with many children, whether or not people like me stay in Ireland, your daughter will probably have a career and have 2.6 children. And guess what David, she may even do an Angelina Jolie and adopt kids that look like me, or marry a guy that looks like me. But she’ll probably also travel around the world because being European endows her with that kind of privilege. And even if there aren’t any black or brown people here for her to marry, she could just as easily pick one on her travels. And I keep going on about marriages because of my cultural background. Our children may decide not to take that route and just have partners or get civil unions with people of the same sex.

    There are so many other challenges facing your Irishness and the state of your world. In my opinion, global warming is probably a bigger threat to you than even having a 20% foreign born population.

    But at the end of the day, Irish people should decide. If you feel that strongly, maybe you should campaign for parties like the Immigration Control Platform at the next elections. If they become a serious political force, then maybe this government will follow Silvio Berlusconi’s lead and work on tackling immigration, especially that from undesirable groups.

    If that happens, many people, including myself will leave. But a new threat to your culture will emerge.

    Comment by Bryan
    39.
    August 12, 2008
    11:28 am

    Bryan/Rosemary, both of you guys essentially feel that there should be far greater freedom to move around and work between different countries, and that, in general migration solves far more problems than it causes. Fine, but given that when a migrant arrives here, whether they are working or not they will have access to many of our social welfare, health, education, subsidised transport etc etc services without having ever contributed or ever having to contribute to them. How exactly do you square this ‘open borders’ approach with the fiscal realities faced by taxpayers and governments? This is an especially important point when you consider that most migrants are coming from the poorer developing world to the more affluent developed world, and therefore rely much more on these services than your standard native citizen. This is also relevant to the question of whether we should still be sending foreign aid to the developed world when you point out that remittances from migrants here back to the developed world are much greater than the level of foreign aid?

    Comment by Owen
    40.
    August 12, 2008
    11:48 am

    Bryan

    Well,as far as I am concerned there is an agenda on the part of some to undermine the nation state. Yet that is not a reason to throw one’s hands up and embrace mass migration.

    The state owes a duty to the Irish people to protect our hard won rights and freedoms, to spend public monies wisely and not to waste them on an asylum seeking system that plainly is just not working.

    I understand the motivation of all those coming from poorer countries to seeking a better life in the West but it is not our responsibility to open our borders. Limited immigration is, as I have said before, inevitable in this day and age but an asylum seeking system that is abused is not.

    I agree with you that people will always seek a better life but if their skills set are not appropriate to Ireland, I do not see why we have to take them. If they have little to offer what benefits are there for the host nation ?

    You hold up UK and USA as model societies in this respect but as, I said in an earlier post, an analogy with them is not appropriate. Britain has had mass immigration owing to her sins of imperialism and colonialism. The US was a “new” country needing immigrants to exploit its resources. Whether Britian is better off with segregated communities, no-go areas, a record number of Britons emigrating, hate crimes, low levels of community trust, et cetera I leave it to other readers of these postings to decide for themselves

    Ireland is very different to both the US and Britain - a small open economy with limited space and resources without any history of imperialsim and without any coherent immigration policies in place.

    You also mention China in support of your view but do you know how difficult it is to get Chinese citizenship ? As a model of an extremely successful monocultural society I would refer you to Japan. and I would add that it is almost impossible for a foreigner to get Japanese citizenship .

    As a small island culture we have enough on our plate dealing with internal EU migration and the lacunae in and contortions of EU law which make a mockery of an effective state immigration policy, never mind handling highly suspect ( in that they are mostly fleeing poverty and not risk of persecution ) asylum seeking applicants from all over the globe.

    Let me also state that I couldn’t care less what colour my daughter’s partner will be. As I said elsewhere, colour is only skindeep and irrelevant. One’s partner is a matter of individual choice and has little to do with our discussion. I must say that I am a little surprised that you brought this up and seem to be taking it personally. I thought that as a journalist you have to be objective! I am not attacking your colour. God knows, I am a sort of pink myself !

    I agree with you that culture is always in a state of flux, is dynamic and changes over time and I also agree that there are other risks out there, including the challenges posed by EU “integration” and prposed expansion.

    Please do not try to paint my view as an ICP one although listening to Ted Neville, he does make a lot of sense, unlike our politicians who would rather speak of anything but this. When a more coherent and stricter immigration policy is introduced , if you decide to leave that is, of course, your choice but even then I think we will still be left with some of our asylum seeking friends who consider the welfare in Ireland better than what is available to them back home. Personally, I would prefer that some of the monies spent on funding a pointless and abused asylum seeking process ( from which not only applicants but also vested interests in Ireland are benefitting) be spent on development aid for countries from where these applicants originate and trying to improve their lot there.

    David Crowley

    Comment by David Crowley
    41.
    August 12, 2008
    12:26 pm

    Owen - My wife and I pay taxes but are not entitled to social services as far as I am aware. Should we become redundant, we would lose our right to stay in Ireland. Granted, we would get automatic access to health care in an emergency, but we, like most of the migrants I know, have our own health insurance. Even students have to have private health insurance to get their study visas.

    I’m sure immigrants use social services, but I do not think we are the drain on the state we are sometimes portrayed as. And most of us pay taxes.

    As for migrants from within the EU, that’s different. First of all, there is a requirement that they live in Ireland for a certain period before being eligible for social welfare benefits. And then there is the fact that Irish people have the same rights within Europe.

    David - With respect to your daughter, my point is that there is a good chance that she will be exposed to different cultures anyway and may contribute to a change in Irish culture. Race tends to be the most dramatic indicator of that change.

    As for Japan, you’re absolutely right. As far as I know, it is a closed community and seems to be doing well. It will be interesting to note what happens as their population ages. As you know, it was an aging population that led to countries like Sweden and Germany inviting Turkish workers to live and work.

    As for the ICP, I mentioned them because they are the only group I know of taking direct political action in response to their desire for curbs in immigration.

    Like you, I like the idea of a nation state if only as a means of limiting the concentration of power. That said, with movement so easy and communication so effective, I would be surprised if there were any homogenous places in the world in a hundred years time. Is that a good thing? I don’t know. One positive consequence will be the fact that no-one will be quarantined from problems elsewhere.

    At the end of the day though, does Ireland have to open up her borders to other people? No. Should she? That’s a question for Ireland to decide. Like you, I would also like to see this question posed to the country and legislation be designed accordingly.

    Anonymous - I’m really sorry, I deleted your comment accidentally. I would be grateful if you resubmitted it. Thanks.

    Comment by Bryan
    42.
    August 12, 2008
    12:51 pm

    I don’t think anyone wants skilled foreigners to leave Ireland Bryan. Diversity is good in moderation and in the cities to a greater extent because in a business, academic etc context it is constructive. I just think people don’t want the working class of other countries coming here. We feel the disadvantages of the foreign working class outweigh any advantage they bring.

    Comment by Anonymous
    43.
    August 12, 2008
    12:52 pm

    Bryan

    I understood your point about my daughter being exposed to other cultures but at least it will be her and her partner’s choice to “partner”. At the moment we as a nation are not being given that choice - instead “multiculturizing” is being foisted upon us and we are endlessly lectured at by our media and politicians about embracing diversity, blah,blah. So, Iike you, I would welcome the choice and am glad that you think it should be given to the Irish people.

    I note what you say about Japan; in fact it is happening already - for example, Filipinas are being brought in to marry lonely Japanese farmers because of a declining workforce but at least that is a decision made and accepted by the society there. Their immigration controls are extremely strict, unlike the chaos that reigns in Ireland.

    Whether there is any homogeniety left in 100 years time I do not know but that is a matter for my grandchildren. In the meantime, I value our way of life, customs and traditions and want to see them protected. the views expressed by people such as Ted Neville in fact are gaining a lot of currency nowadays as people do feel that immigration levels are too high and something has to be done about it.

    David Crowley

    Comment by David Crowley
    44.
    August 12, 2008
    12:59 pm

    “One positive consequence will be the fact that no-one will be quarantined from problems elsewhere.”
    Surely there is irony here. Citizens of a problem area leaving will just accelerate the situations decline. Only a certain income bracket of the population can afford to immigrate and one could argue they would either be the ones 1. who created the problem or 2. ones with the potential to correct the problem. So by not quarantining problems you are creating a bigger problem in that area because naturally the balancing force to correct the situation would be absent. It undermines democracy (I think) if the will of the people becomes one sided because all the opposing citizens have left?

    Comment by Anonymous
    45.
    August 12, 2008
    1:39 pm

    Bryan, sorry, i didn’t mean to suggest that the current migrants here ARE a massive drag on the taxpayer at the moment, but simply that the current system of relatively freely available social services combined with you and Rosemary believing in very very open borders could potentially lead to a major drag on the economy if the unskilled economic migrants were granted uncontrolled access to the country. Having skills, language and demographic requirements, as well as absolute numbers, are justified and necessary checks to make sure the whole system of inward migration is sustainable.

    Comment by Owen
    46.
    August 12, 2008
    5:52 pm

    David,

    My comment about your name was simply related to the fact that you signed off “David Crowley” as if we were expected to know who you were; I was making a joke, and I wasn’t trying to be rude.

    I am neither professionally nor unprofessionally involved in “multiculturalising” Ireland - I don’t even know what that would entail.

    My use of the word “protective” was incorrect; I am proud, and I am interested, in Ireland’s culture - but if it is being eroded, it has absolutely nothing to do with any foreign nationals. Have you been at a GAA match recently? I have, and I haven’t been at one where more than a scattering of people knew the words to the National Anthem. Irish people are all talk when it comes to culture, but, in reality, won’t take any steps to help the situation or protect it themselves.

    There have been too many points made to create a response. Your daughter, though, is not growing up in the same Catholic Ireland that you did. Firstly, how many people do you know who are bringing up their children to be truly Catholic? How many children go to mass, excepting the run-up to their communion, confirmation, and the odd “dress-up” day, like Easter or Christmas?

    Resisting change never did anyone any good. I’m sorry that I’m not addressing all the points that have been fired at me; I’ve been away from this post for too long, and frankly, I’m now overwhelmed.

    And whoever’s point it was that only professionals should be allowed in was, in my opinion, ridiculous - that’s the kind of elitist view that you’d accuse me of having. And as for Irish Times readers and D4s… again, chip and shoulder much?

    One last point: “I’ve seen a man hit a woman with a closed fist”. Welcome to Ireland, man. That kind of stuff happens all the time, and instigated by Irish men as well - is it okay if you just don’t see it? Is violence okay if people have some sort of shame about it? Closed doors, windows and eyes, I think.

    Comment by Rosemary
    47.
    August 13, 2008
    9:35 am

    (1) Well done Bryan on hosting this forum and on eliciting a good range of responses. Some of the comments have been excellent and some awful, but it is an entirely worthwhile exercise and one that should be hosted regularly.

    The opening exchanges with Zed Peach, in particular, have renewed my faith in polite but heated and intelligent debate on the Internet.

    (2) I am always confused by the term “multicultural” to be honest. People always seem to be for and against it, but I am never sure what it really means. For me, there is no such thing anymore as a genuine monoculture (outside of highly remote tribal communities) and all we are really debating here is the degree of cultural mix that we want in our society.

    (3) A further point that confuses me is how readily the concepts of immigration and “multiculturalism” get interchanged. They are separate concepts that are interrelated.

    Immigration is a vital component of ensuring the continued expansion of any growing economy. Without it, those economies would fail - to repeat, fail. Often times, the sort of immigration that is required is into low-paying jobs, as the indigenous population now (rightly) have higher expectations for what they can earn. Hence, the notion of only ever allowing in certain types of skilled manual labour or service professionals is really something of a red herring. Lawyers make for bad burger flippers really!

    (Of course, the “fun” begins when those economies start to cool off for a time and some of those higher paying jobs cease to exist…)

    (4) Hence, immigration is an economic necessity. The real question is should these immigrants conform to the dominant culture or is it acceptable for them to retain many of the cultural trappings of where they came from.

    My viewpoint here is how I would like to be treated if I lived in a country different to my own (something that I have done). Yes, I would still like to wear the clothes that I like to wear, still speak English to my friends, still associate frequently with other ex-pats, still drink alcohol, still not practise religion, still listen to rock music, still celebrate St. Patrick’s Day enthusiastically, still occasionally cook the food that I like to eat, etc.

    At the same time, if I live in a predominantly Muslim country, then I should show respect for the role that religion plays in their society, if I live in a French-speaking community, I should try to speak French when appropriate to do so, if certain types of behaviour that I find normal are less tolerated in that country, I should exercise more discretion.

    In short, immigrants should respect the way of life in the country that they move to and, equally, that country should respect their way of life. Therefore, if this is what we mean by the term “multiculturalism”, then I am all for it.

    (5) I am wryly amused at how successful the right-wing British papers have managed to frame the debate over “multiculturalism” though in these islands. Since the mid 1990s or so, they have run a constant barrage of articles attacking bogeymen within the immigrant population in Britain (wife beaters, thugs, welfare cheats, etc.). The clear agenda has been to tarnish all immigrants with these crimes, even if only a fraction of that population was guilty of them. Hence, the debate on “multiculturalism” always seems to be framed in a negative and confrontational context. All immigrants are guilty until proven innocent!

    As with the Lisbon debate, there is no stronger persuasion tool to use against a predominantly conservative society than that of the fear of change.

    (6) However, to end on an upbeat note, I want to say why I have less fear of such change than others.

    For the best part of two decades, I have been educated with, worked with, lived with, and socialised with people of different cultural backgrounds to my own. They have expanded my world enormously, given me perspectives on life that I had never considered, taught me ways of doings things that would never have occurred to me, have challenged my socially conservative upbringing and, in doing so, helped me to understand things about myself that had been bothering me, have made me laugh, were there for me when I had nowhere else to go, have added colour and vibrancy to my life…

    I could not think of anything more awful than a life without sharing my culture with them and their culture with mine. It has always been a two-way street and my sense of Irishness and cultural heritage is the stronger within me for bringing it into the lives of others.

    How can that be a bad thing?

    Comment by Longman Oz
    48.
    August 13, 2008
    11:35 am

    Longman - Thanks. I’ve had some of my ideas challenged and my view of people who hold certain ideas has changed. Hopefully that goes both ways.

    Thanks also for sharing your views. I totally agree with you. Like you, my life has been enriched by the different types of people I have been able to call friends. And the more I learn about other cultures, the more I appreciate and identify with my own.

    Anonymous - I think that by the time people are fleeing a place, democracy has failed. Having people leave that place weakens those in power. And knowing that people could walk out would be a huge deterrent. The only reason McDonalds, M&S or anyone else doesn’t pay a slave wage is that their employees would walk out. Choice or options empower people.

    Zed - you, me, and the guys at the assylum hostels, we’re family. We’re a massively dysfunctional one, but family all the same. Good luck bru.

    Everyone - I think this particular discussion has just about run its course. I am really grateful to everyone for being willing to talk about the issues. A lot of debates on tis issue end up being emotional, heated and seldom constructive. People like David and Anonymous have helped me understand the genuine concerns that some people have around the fact that today’s Ireland looks very different to yesteryear’s.

    I hopefully you’ve also been challenged too.

    Who knows, maybe the integration and the justice ministers will come up with a solution we can all live with.

    Comment by Bryan
    49.
    August 13, 2008
    12:10 pm

    Rosemary, you really don’t seem to like ireland or Irish people much. Apparently we’re just a bunch of faux-Catholic, wife-beating, national anthem mumbling, foreign game loving, lazy, elitist so-and-so’s with a chip on our shoulders, who need to be bred out through inward migration. Different people protect their cultures in different ways. With us being a small, open and globalised economy, we have to be realistic about how much of our culture can be protected 100%, so the challenge is really to prioritise what we want to protect and how we go about doing it. Secure borders and restrictions on migration are necessary tools in this aim, and our sovereign right to decide just who we want to live and work here isn’t to be given up just because of an incredibly generalised statement like “resisting change never did anyone any good”. I’m pretty sure the Jews would be wiped out by now if they hadn’t repeatedly resisted ‘change’ over the last 100 years, and its our right to try and let in only the type of change that we want to take place, ie i am 100% not racist, but i feel i have a lot more in common with Polish people than i do with Nigerians or Romanians.

    Comment by Owen
    50.
    August 13, 2008
    1:43 pm

    I think Bryan’s right, and that this discussion is now moving in circles. But Owen, I don’t dislike Ireland or Irish people; my belief is that you’ll find (a) crimes are committed by all nationalities, including the Irish and (b) a lot of Irish people - I am reluctant to generalise by saying most, but … - talk on and on about Irish “culture” without making any efforts to celebrate or preserve it themselves.

    I think a lot of Westerners are very elitist, and seem to think that they have a God-given right to enjoy their so-called “rights” without any responsibilities, while immigrants and especially the underprivileged are burdened with the responsibilities, and no rights.

    Anyway, I am the one who was accused of being elitist myself, for being of liberal thought when it comes to immigration and multiculturalism.

    Faux-Catholic: look at the evidence. There are plenty of Irish people who describe themselves as being Catholic without ascribing to any of the beliefs, rules, norms, of the Catholic church. Fair enough, you may be Christian, but being Catholic involves a commitment that I just don’t see in most Irish people, in day-to-day life.

    As for wife beating, grow up. If you read my post you would understand what I was saying; that violence against women is not confined to one particular nationality. While particular cultures may agree with discipline by violence (which might be a valid belief, but not in Ireland, under our laws), Irish men and women were brought up knowing it was wrong, and they still do it, probably both sexes, even if we don’t know about it.

    And when you say “Romanian”, are you referring to Romanian people by nationality, or members of the Roma community? Because Romanians have a lot more in common with Polish people than with Nigerians, culturally. As do, come to think of it, members of the Roma community. Bracketing people is never going to help!

    Comment by Rosemary
    51.
    August 13, 2008
    4:41 pm

    Rosemary, ur right, we are going round in circles, so lets summarise (and correct me if im wrong): ur basic hypothesis is that we don’t have a right to borders, we don’t have a god-given right for our culture to be maintained, and that all travel should be free and open across the globe. Please, put this question to a vote of the Irish people and see what the results are. Im guessing 95%+ would vote against. Per your blog this would no doubt mean that this 95% voted this way because “anti-immigrant sentiment is a combination of fear, xenophobia and a deeply held racism”. So the “anti” camp is really filled by ignorant and hate-filled people? Its this sort of arrogance which no doubt led u to ask if i meant Romanian or Roma and which told me to grow up when i queried your reference to wife-beating Irishmen. The actual reality is that most of the anti camp on this blog simply want some form of control measures on inward migration, for native Irish culture to be maintained, and for the best interests of the legal residents of this island to be put ahead of non-legal residents (whether here or abroad) when matters concerning this island are at stake.

    Comment by Owen
    52.
    August 13, 2008
    5:20 pm

    Owen, you know you’re misrepresenting Rosemary. Picking on girls isn’t cool.

    You can be as harsh as you like if you’re telling the truth. The conclusions you’ve ascribed to Rosemary… I’m starting to think you’re a politician with the way you twisted her words.

    Comment by Bryan
    53.
    August 13, 2008
    5:45 pm

    Bryan, check out her blog, the entire sentence she used is as follows: “It seems to me that anti-immigrant sentiment is a combination of fear, xenophobia and a deeply held racism that we’re allowed to have because, like, Nigerians steal - they do, everybody knows it. I’m not being racist, but look at the facts!”. What else should i conclude from this and how have i twisted her words? As many many people have noted, its extremely annoying to be labelled as racist simply because i’m not all in favour of throwing open our borders to the world. Its unjustified and based on poor argument. If all the anti-immigration people (or simply controlled immigration people as most of us actually are) are going to be immediately labelled as racist then this debate really isn’t going to progress very far.

    On this blog she also says “because I think that if any nationality wants to come and live in Ireland, and not become like Irish people, if that’s what integration is - then, have at it”, and also “our borders are defined because of political necessity, but I personally don’t believe that gives us the right to allow or disallow people to enter or leave.” Bryan, please tell me how i have twisted her words?

    I’m not picking on anyone Bryan, but i won’t accept a slur on one side of the argument when its completely unjustified, and i won’t let a hollow argument pass as mainstream thought when it clearly doesn’t hold up as such.

    Comment by Owen
    54.
    August 13, 2008
    6:29 pm

    I’m refusing to engage with that, only to say that when, on my blog, I say “deeply held racism” I don’t mean a very strong racism, I mean one that is deep, hidden, beneath the surface - on which, of course, none of us are racist at all.

    Pretty much everyone here who is on the anti side has spent the last 20 posts slagging off myself and Bryan, and saying things like “your type” “you’d have”, etc. Have at it - you have no idea of my type and I mean neither more nor less than I have said here.

    Comment by Rosemary
    55.
    August 13, 2008
    10:48 pm

    Owen, Rosemary doesn’t need me to speak for her. All I’m going to say is that if you engaged with her on her blog in the same courteous way we have engaged here, I’m sure you’ll find some common ground.

    Let’s assume she’s as proud of being Irish as you (which I believe to be the case). Aren’t you curious about how the two of you can end up seeing this issue from such different perspectives?

    Comment by Bryan
    56.
    August 14, 2008
    10:09 am

    Rosemary/Bryan, your last few posts have accused me and others of “picking on”, “twisting words” and “slagging off” the two of you. I’ve asked for how exactly i’ve done this, and i’ve yet to receieve a decent reply. Rosemary has made some fairly controversial (we’re being racist) and non-mainstream (open borders policy) that deserve a lot of scrutiny, debate and rebuttal, and thats what i’ve tried to do.

    I have only ever quoted Rosemary verbatum, or given a view of what she feels and asked for it to be corrected if i was wrong. On the flip side Rosemary, through her own words, has suggested that people on the anti-immigration side of the argument are xenophobic and racist, are “ridiculous” for only wanting professional to be allowed in, and has told me to “grow up”. You’ve suggested that i must be some sort of politician because of the way i’ve used Rosemary’s words against her (me or my family have absolutely no affiliation with any political party). I’ve been extremely careful not to label people on this blog, so perhaps you guys could show the same care. I would imagine that if most people were described as being “deeply held racists” they would consider it a severe and defamatory insult.

    Comment by Owen
    57.
    August 14, 2008
    2:19 pm

    Once again, see above re “deeply held”. We’re all entitled to our opinions - I haven’t been attacking others for theirs, only refuting them in what I think has been a courteous manner. What I write on my blog is, shockingly, my opinion - and my opinion is that the majority of Irish people are xenophobic and racist, not in a severe way but in a way that affects their ability to decide how they feel about these, emotive issues.

    And I wasn’t labelling anyone in particular on this blog, only that people’s views have given me food for thought and fuel for my opinions. Thanks! I won’t be posting here again; continue arguing if you will, having the last word is, I know, very satisfactory (not to “your type”, to everyone - unlike some, I have tried to keep the labellnig to a minimum).
    I’m sorry if I’ve insulted you, that was never my intention.

    Comment by Rosemary
    58.
    August 15, 2008
    11:41 pm

    I know this post has run its course but I read an interesting article which I would like to hear Bryan’s comments on and thought this was a good platform.

    From your comments on this posts I thought that maybe abuse of the welfare system by immigrants was maybe being blown out of proportion. Every time I pass a person I think is a Nigerian now, I wonder to myself if he or she really is Nigerian or am I generalizing?

    However, I read http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/risible-lies-about-immigrants-no-substitute-for-honest-debate-1456226.html and my opinions have been restored somewhat.

    I’d like to hear your take. I would actually pay to watch you and Kevin Meyers sit down to lunch for a discussion :)

    Comment by Zed Peach
    59.
    August 16, 2008
    12:10 am

    After reading Kevin Myer’s article I have trouble balancing some inconsistencies between what you say and what he says, maybe you could clarify and comment on a few things you said Bryan:

    “My wife and I pay taxes but are not entitled to social services as far as I am aware. Should we become redundant, we would lose our right to stay in Ireland.”
    Why does the article say so many Nigerians are unemployed and why are they still in Ireland?
    Why are the Nigerians entitled to free housing & welfare benefits without losing their right in Ireland?
    They are either:
    1. Here on a visa and using the system, in which case your comments don’t add up.
    2. They are asylum seekers in which case your comment “With respect to refugees, I acknowledge that there is some abuse of the system, but it has been overblown.” is not accurate because the figures in the article are significant in my opinion.

    “As for non-EU people, you have no idea how difficult it is to obtain a visa into Ireland. One of the requirements is the need to demonstrate adequate finances and living money for the stay.”
    How did those Nigerians get their visas if it is so difficult? Surely they did not have adequate finance if they are relying on state housing? Maybe they came here and couldn’t find employment and depleted their finances. My concern is that the Irish authorities should anticipate this because it is evidently a relatively large scale problem.

    Your comment which got me thinking when I read it:
    “The biggest danger going forward, with respect, is the kind of generalization you have made. The vast majority of immigrants are professionals contributing to this countries economy.”
    Can you now say (in light of Myer’s article) that there is a significant number of immigrants (I’m assuming the Nigerians are immigrants here and not the “non-existent” refugees) not contributing to the economy? Generalizing is not good but is it really generalizing or is there a real problem here?

    Comment by Zed Peach
    60.
    August 16, 2008
    12:46 am

    Sorry, this is being silly now but in light of the above discussion could we call the economic recession the Celtic Zebra :)

    Comment by Zed Peach
    61.
    August 16, 2008
    1:03 am

    Celtic Chameleon - slow moving and changing from green to other shades. Thats perfect!

    Comment by Zed Peach
    62.
    August 16, 2008
    12:56 pm

    Zed,

    Bryan has already spoken at length about Kevin Myers’ article - see the July archives, perhaps. [My turn to speak on Bryan’s behalf, obviously.]

    And I think you’ll find that there are huge differences in terms of residency, working and social welfare rights between asylum seekers, refugees and those in this country in possession of a working or living visa. I suggest you look them up.

    From what I gather, a huge portion of Nigerians are asylum seekers or refugees. A huge number of African immigrants are probably in the same position. In these cases, they spend weeks, sometimes months, in Government-sponsored accommodation awaiting the result of their asylum appeal, on approximately €14 a week. By the time their appeals are granted, things have changed: their spirits, for one (I would imagine). Also, in some cases they have been nine months out of work, if not more - and, as detailed again and again, it is hugely difficult to get a job in Ireland if you are a refugee, especially a black one.

    Also, it may shock you to hear this, but Kevin Myers has never been, and is not, in the business of writing facts.

    Comment by Rosemary
    63.
    August 17, 2008
    1:51 am

    Hi Rosemary,

    The article I refered to was written by Kevin Myers on 15th August so I think you are refering to a different one.

    I didn’t question the validity of his facts because I though a newspaper would protect their reputation with regard to what gets published.

    I am aware of the differences between asylum seekers, refugees and people here on a working visa. I’m just confused as to which of those groups is mainly responsible for the abuse of state funds that is constantly reported.

    Comment by Zed Peach
    64.
    August 17, 2008
    7:14 am

    Rosemary

    You wrote that the majority of Irish people are racist and xenophobic ( Post 57 )

    How have you come to know this ? Do you know that vast majority? Have you met them and discussed issues such as immigration and multiculturism with them ? If you have not discussed these issues with them, how have you arrived at such a position ? Do you have a crystal ball or something or have you done hard empirical research ?

    I had intended not to bother commenting on your penultimate posting but since you replied to Zed Peach you obviously have changed your mind about not wanting to post here anymore so I await your reply with interest.

    David Crowley

    Comment by David Crowley
    65.
    August 17, 2008
    5:35 pm

    Yours are rhetorical questions, David - I think you could happily answer them yourself. What I stated, I did as an opinion, not as a fact. From experience, not from empirical evidence. Feel free to conduct surveys, keep me informed - I’d love to know what people say. But I could guess that any survey would disprove my own theories - my opinion is that a lot of Irish people are racist in ways that they would never admit.

    Comment by Rosemary
    66.
    August 17, 2008
    6:25 pm

    Zed - what Rosemary said (thanks Rosemary).

    The Nigerians referred to are probably people who have been given leave to remain in Ireland. People who have successfully gone through the asylum process.

    It is not uncommon for people to spend 3 years or longer in that process. During which it is illegal to work. Think about it. Imagine having to live in a hostel and not being allowed to work and without the funds to study. Imagine also that you have no idea how long you will be there. You get food and shelter, but only €19 a week spending money. Clothes, traveling money, the odd movie, night out at the pub ‘integrating’ and dates. All on €19 a week. And remember, all this for an indefinite period. Your greatest fears are that a decision will never be made, or that it will, and you’re going to be deported.

    All the while, people snicker or whisper behind your back all the time because you’re living ‘off the state’ or off their tax money. You here things like ‘those people are lazy, at least the Polish work hard’. And for some reason, no-one seems to understand that if you do work, and are caught, you can be deported.

    I have a couple of friends who have been through this process. One has a huge self esteem problem. He is now an Irish citizen but can’t get work. I wonder if part of the reason is that he lacks confidence. But he rarely gets interviews. Anyone who is in H.R. or who is responsible for hiring knows how attractive a CV with a 3 year gap is. The only thing worse than that 3 year gap is an explanation that the time was spent in an asylum hostel.

    I’m not proud of the fact that so many Nigerians are welfare recipients, but that fact has to be looked at in context. It will only be overcome by a reform of the asylum process.

    As for Kevin Myers, I don’t know. I listened to him on Newstalk when he was standing in for George Hook. I don’t think there would be fireworks if we were on a panel together. I don’t like things that he has written, but I don’t have problems with him as a person. I doubt he knows I exist. If he did, he would probably rightly feel that I wasn’t worth getting worked up over.

    Comment by Bryan

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