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  • Irish Politics

    July 30, 2008 @ 12:34 pm | by Bryan

    I find Irish politics fascinating. Most interesting for me is the relationship ordinary people have with their politicians.

    In Britain, Gordon Brown is struggling to maintain his hold on the leadership of the Labour Party. Part of this is to do with poor political acumen on Mr Brown’s part. A good deal though is the result of Britons having found him guilty of mismanaging the economy. David Cameron’s appeal has grown in step with the worsening economic outlook. It seems that Gordon Brown is being punished, rightly or wrongly, for the state of the economy.

    Things don’t seem to operate that way here. At the last election, when the economy looked wobbly, the electorate chose to keep faith in Fianna Fáil. Even now, there may be lots of complaints about the government, but there is no evidence of them losing their grip on power. Although there is a lot of scepticism about how the country is run, that scepticism does not seem to extend to those doing the running.

    I have no political affiliations here. Part of the reason is that I don’t think there is any substantive difference between the major parties. I wonder if that is why Brian Cowen hasn’t seen a serious challenge to his leadership. Could it be that there isn’t a viable alternative; no Irish version of David Cameron? Or is it something else? Do the Irish just do politics in a different way?

    • 23 Comments »

    1.
    July 30, 2008
    1:06 pm

    David Cameron has charisma (and even a certain elegance). Gordon Brown has neither. Bertie had charisma too along with something indefinable. Charm maybe? An essential link with the common man and woman on the street. But somehow he also managed to be popular among fellow politicians, particularly internationally. Gordon Brown doesn’t have that popularity. There’s something dislikeable from the off, regardless of his management of the UK’s economy. And following Tony Blair was always going to be a near-impossible task.

    Also I’d say Enda Kenny is delighted he didn’t get the gig last time round. Poisoned chalice. Any opposition leader would much prefer to re-build than demolish. But does he have the charisma?

    Comment by narocroc
    2.
    July 30, 2008
    2:12 pm

    Bryan I agree that there is little or nothing to differentiate the main parties here, but the same is also true in the UK - there’s very little clear blue water these days between Labour and the Tories as far as I can see. It’s all about personalities and, unfortunately for Gordon Brown, he doesn’t seem to have one.

    Comment by Neill
    3.
    July 30, 2008
    2:53 pm

    i think you’re right Bryan there is no leader of an opposition party to challege Brian Cowen. Yet.

    I think the last election swayed towards FF not because people didnt vote against them but the policy of the opposition parties was that adopted for the Yes policy in the Lisbon treaty - wait and see what the other side has to say then try to poke holes in their arguement. A weak half arsed effort.

    I think the opposition parties here need to learn to be proactive and less reactive. People want decisive action as well as words.

    If you compare prime ministers questions in the UK to that of Taoiseachs questions you almost cringe at the incoherent babble that breaks out almost instantly in the Dail compared with some of the oft well prepared scathing remarks that cut deep in the Commons. The Dail has its moments but they are too few and far between the shouting and the ringing of the ceann comhairles bell (someone give that man a set of earmuffs)

    I’m not saying we should adopt English politics, far from it. I think a stronger presence at grass roots as Sinn Fein has shown to be their greatest asset, coupled with strong policies that dont revolve around “lets do what yer man said but only better” are the keys to a successful opposition campaign.

    Either the Labour and FG refocus to form proper alternative not only to FF but to one another, or we may see the introduction of other party joining the already clutter political landscape.

    Comment by paul m
    4.
    July 30, 2008
    3:09 pm

    Narocroc - Do you think that at the end of the day modern politics comes down to charisma and personality?

    Neil - I hear you, but part of me wonders if a boring politician who just gets on with it isn’t better than a charismatic one who is just charisma.

    Paul - I know very little about the mechanics of party politics. Do you think either FG or Labour even want to reform. Isn’t there a form of ’safety in numbers’ in remaining as close to the centre as possible? Then at least it would just come down to personality rather than substance - which people may or may not like.

    Comment by Bryan
    5.
    July 30, 2008
    3:39 pm

    Bryan, not entirely but charisma and personality play a crucial role in the public’s interaction with and engagement with politicians and therefore modern politics. A case in point is Lucinda Creighton ousting Micheál MacDowell at the last election. Obviously politics goes deeper than the face on the poster but my point is that modern politicians must also be PR wizards. Hopefully they also have substance to back it all up. Brian Cowen and Gordon Brown are both discovering how fickle the people who they represent can be. Whereas David Cameron will benefit from his image in ways Gordon Brown never will. I digress but something similar happened to Steve Staunton as Ireland football team manager. The media never gave him a chance due to his lack of charisma. This, I feel, effectively ruined his chances before he began.

    On another point I fundamentally beleive that a boring politician who just gets on with it is much better than a purely charismatic one.

    Comment by narocroc
    6.
    July 30, 2008
    4:36 pm

    First, while people seem to often wonder these days how it is that Fianna Fáil remain in power, Fianna Fáil have been in power more often than not - the vast majority of Irish governments since independence have included Fianna Fáil - and it is not unusual for Fianna Fáil to enjoy three consequtive terms in office. In the past, the country has been governed by Fianna Fáil for 16 year stretches.

    Second, while people seemed to find Bertie Ahern’s self-description as a socialist funny, Fianna Fáil have always been left of centre. In more recent years they have appealed to larger business interests, but don’t forget that many of these, particularly the property developers, started out as builders - ie. ordinary working people. FF has adapted to changes in its supporters and managed to appeal to a large section of the ordinary working people, as well as the “new rich” etc.

    The combination of these two factors has made FF quite an appealing party (for many), despite the general attitude evident in the media which seems puzzled by their success. It also means that the opposition is deprived of any meaningful ability to appear credible - hardly anyone on the opposition benches has worthwhile experience in government. The longer FF stays in power, the less TDs are left across the floor with ministerial experience. Of course, the lack of ministerial experience doesn’t seem to be an issue for David Cameron, but don’t forget that he is a Blair-style politician who might not appeal to the electorate in the long run AND he effectively owes his current job to Frank Luntz.

    Comment by An Fear Bolg
    7.
    July 30, 2008
    5:14 pm

    Narocroc - That makes sense. But how much more charisma does Brian Cowen have than Enda Kenny? Neither comes across as charismatic to me.

    AFB - Are you saying that Fianna Fáil are just better at politics than the other parties, or that people in Ireland just prefer trusted brands? I totally get the role of PR, but is it the biggest factor?

    Comment by Bryan
    8.
    July 30, 2008
    8:48 pm

    I’m surprised the depth of loyalty to one’s party (one’s parent’s party) has not been mentioned. You don’t see a drastic shift from Fianna Fail to Fianna Gael despite the fact that in my opinion they are both centre right. It is Labour popularity which fluctuates and maybe that’s down to the leaders in place.

    IRelated to this loyalty issue is, in my view, that traditional political thinking is not yet ripe in Ireland. Despite being independant since 1922, it is the boom which has finally enabled the majority of young people to attend univsersity, I believe people have started to debate a little more the differences between conservative and socialist and that over time perhaps the left, with Sinn Féin and Labour, could provide a real alternative to the traditional 2. (a United Ireland would really make things interesting:)

    Comment by michael strasb
    9.
    July 31, 2008
    12:26 am

    Yes, we do politics in a very different way here. this is probably the only country in western europe where a man like Bertie Ahern could spend so long getting away with being…well, Bertie Ahern. There are plenty of us who are nice and loud and articulate in detailing who we don’t like in Irish politics and why, but when it comes to election time things get very parochial and the old ladies who are only loosely in touch with anything actually happening in ireland come out and vote in “that nice boy of Michael and Mary from down the road who promised he’s fix up the pavement by the bingo hall and said he’s personally clamp down on those boy-racers.” Meanwhile, the younger generation fail to vote because they’re too tired after work/ had to go to college in a town far away from where they’re registered to vote/ don’t believe there’s anyone worth voting for.

    And Fianna Fail and a weird assortment of Independent candidates standing on absolutely no particular issue whatsoever get in again. Every time.

    Comment by Andrew
    10.
    July 31, 2008
    3:40 am

    This is interesting……..

    Bryan, I am a member of Fianna Fail. I am a chairman. Why?

    Not just because of history, or family.

    Look logically at your choice:

    If you are a “political animal” and want to become a political activist in any country, what should you do?

    Look at the various parties, of course; see whose policies you agree with and might like to promote?

    But, in Ireland, where policies are difficult to find/differentiate/pin down, you must do something different.

    Whatever your political leaning is, there is no point in being silent/unable to be EFFECTIVE.

    So, you join the party that has been MOST SUCCESSFUL over the years; Fianna Fail has been in power for about 65 of the last 80 years of independence.

    Why bother joining/supporting a party that has less chance of being in power?

    Everyone likes to back a winner - its human nature.

    Couple this with what we in Fianna Fail call “The grass roots”. (The people on the ground who accept my first point and have a considerable “brand loyalty” to FF that is both current and historically based.) It gathers its own momentum, after a while.

    Align to this the FDI and you have your answer: the party that has been n power most often over the last fifty/hundred years = “stability” and therefore it is safe to invest in that country.

    Certainly, it is safer to invest there than in another country where the colour of the ruling party keeps changing.

    Comment by Tim
    11.
    July 31, 2008
    11:12 am

    I would say Enda Kenny is slightly more charismatic than Brian Cowen. But you’re right Bryan, neither are overly so. In fact both are lacking real charm. That said Kenny came across very well on his appearance on the Miriam show recently as a family-man type with integrity. Seems doomed to life in opposition all the same.

    Comment by narocroc
    12.
    July 31, 2008
    11:24 am

    “this is probably the only country in western europe where a man like Bertie Ahern could spend so long getting away with being…well, Bertie Ahern”
    Ever heard of a country called Italy Andrew….?

    Comment by enda
    13.
    July 31, 2008
    12:26 pm

    Michael - Don’t most children end up supporting a different political party to their parents’? Or is my family just interesting?
    It’s interesting that you mention Sinn Féin. If there are more performances like Mary Lou McDonald’s during the Lisbon debates, who knows, they might enter the major leagues.

    Andrew - are you saying a lot of politics is about personalities and family/community relationships, or that little old ladies are gullible and get hoodwinked?
    And Enda has a point. Ireland isn’t unique.

    Tim - that’s a refreshingly honest. Do you get away with ideological differences because your party does not have a strong ideology, or do you sacrifice your ideology (where it clashes with your party’s) for political expediency? And do you think there is room in Irish politics for a party whose main emphasis is their ideology?

    I ask because of the different levels of support for Labour, Sinn Féin and the Socialist Party. I have ordered them according to their numbers of elected officials. All are on the left, but their appeal seems to be inversely proportional to how strongly they adhere to left-wing ideology. Why is that?

    Narocroc - I’m not a huge fan of either. But again, seeing what’s happening in the UK, I’m a little surprised at how secure the Taoiseach is.

    Enda - True.

    Comment by Bryan
    14.
    August 2, 2008
    1:03 am

    I was saying both of those things Bryan. Party politics only count for a certain amount in Ireland (much less so than in Britain, for example) and people mostly just vote for the person they feel will get local issues sorted for them. And , quite often, that person happens to be representing Fianna Fail. Or else they’re independent, which explains why so many of them get in. There can’t be any other reason. They then go on to have a massively disproportionate amount of influence in the make-up of the government. We even have people in this country who run under the banner of ‘Independent Fianna Fail’, whatever the hell that is. It basically means they can align themselves with Fianna Fail but feel free to distance themselves from certain party policies whenever it suits them. It’s a complete joke.

    Enda - fair point, but you could elaborate on that a bit. perhaps the Italian are as foolish as us and just can’t resist a lovable rogue. Mind you, at least Berlusconi’s preoccupations lie with his local football team, rather than one in Manchester.

    Comment by Andrew
    15.
    August 2, 2008
    12:38 pm

    I need to work on my Irish history, but in the meantime, hopefully all of you can help. How did FF and FG end up where they are? How did the one become the status quo party and the other the alternative?

    Comment by Bryan
    16.
    August 4, 2008
    11:49 am

    I don’t agree whatsoever with Tim that only by joining Fianna Fail you can prevent your own silence or effectiveness.

    There are many ways in which people in grassroots in other parties are not silent and hugely effective.

    I’ll give perhaps an example which I have been personally involved in which demonstrates this.

    I joined the Labour Party 4 years ago and initially became involved in the youth section and then the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) group - if you look at what the Labour LGBT group did since 2005 - it’s an example in my opinion of effective grassroots campaigning and parliamentary work to get things done

    Labour LGBT started by pressuring the party internally to come up with a comprehensive policy on lesbian and gay partnership rights. We also organised various events to campaign on this issue too

    Eventually the party introduced the Civil Unions Bill to the Dail and by doing this pressured FF and others to act on this.

    My point is that you can definitely get your voice heard and be effective in other parties despite what Tim says above

    Comment by Ian
    17.
    August 4, 2008
    1:05 pm

    Ian - Thanks, that’s a really good point. What do you think about the suggestion that the best way to effect change is to get your party in government?

    Comment by Bryan
    18.
    August 4, 2008
    4:19 pm

    I don’t agree with that Bryan - I think that campaigning on the ground can effect positive change too! - Although obviously onec you get into government you can effect reall change

    I suppose that touches on the whole issue for the labour party regarding coalition - members of the labour party have said to me that we should never have sold out our ideologies and joined either FF in 1992 or FG in 1994 in government

    However I disagree with this - without Labour in government we would probably never have achieved; a succesful divorce referendum, setting up the combat poverty agency, decriminalising homoseuality, initiation of legislation on equality, freedom of information legislation, abolishing fees for 3rd level education.

    So I suppose my point is - Labour can effect change when we enter government but there are other ways too!

    Comment by Ian
    19.
    August 4, 2008
    5:09 pm

    You make a compelling argument Ian. And why did you join the labour party. Was it mainly an ideological thing or family history/connections? And how different is the Labour Party to either FF or FG? Do the differences go beyond personalities?

    I ask because personally, I don’t really see the difference. And the same goes for other parties. The Greens for example, now that they’re in government don’t seem to be markedly different from everyone else. They have successfully brought environmental issus to the fore, but other than that…

    I don’t want to speak for Tim, but it sounded to me like he was saying that there is so little difference between the party you may as well join the big, popular one. Do you think you could have implemented a grassroots campaign that led to the introduction of the Civil Union Bill from within FF or FG?

    Comment by Bryan
    20.
    August 5, 2008
    1:42 pm

    Bryan, You seem to almost understand my point; however, what Ian has said about Labour’s achievements WHILE in POWER proves what I am trying to say: If you want the power to effect your ideological progress, your best chance is by working with those in POWER (in government). The most direct root to this is by being in the party that holds power most of the time.
    Of course, that often means subordinating my individual ideology to that of other members (equally promoting their own ideas) yet continuing to lobby/agitate for promoting my view for long-term support and implementation. Politics takes time: plant a seed and nourish it to eventual fruition (I hope!).

    Comment by Tim
    21.
    August 5, 2008
    3:58 pm

    Politics takes time: plant a seed and nourish it to eventual fruition
    I’m beginning to think that may be true of all of life Tim. I’m really looking forward to Ian’s response though.

    Comment by Bryan
    22.
    August 5, 2008
    9:17 pm

    I grew up in a house where support fluctuated between FF and FG but never really Labour. Around the time I entered college and during my time in student politics I first became really aware of the Labour party.

    I became involved as a student in campaigns where Labour was the party to the forefront; Free 3rd Level Fees, Anti Racism, Womens Rights, Anti-War. I eventually decided that the Labour Party was the one which best met both my political beliefs and convictions.

    I joined because Labour believes in Social Justice, Workers Rights, Equality, Social Liberalism, Civil Liberties; I don’t believe that either FF or FG truly support these any of these ideals.

    I do believe that there is a different ideology in the Labour Party to Fianna Fail and Fine Gael - And that it does go beyond personalities - Labour has been at the forefront of many many campaigns that FF and FG would largely refuse to get involved in.

    Tim talks about having an individual ideology - yet all I can see from his comments is that ideology seems to be “power at all costs” - In my view when you try to lobby/agitate within an organisation like that for your own ideas - they will only get support if they are deemed worthy - In other words if your ideas/long term goals do not help achieve power then they are not worthy!

    Now - to answer your question Bryan - could a grassroots campaign that led to the introduction of the Civil Union Bill from within FF or FG have been implemented from within FF or FG?

    No - I don’t think so - the inherent conservatism of both organisations doesn’t in my opinion respond well to grassroots campaigns - There would also (as has been noticeable in FF) be considerable parliamentary opposition in both parties to what was actually proposed - (Neither FF or FG supported same sex couples adopting yet Labour does - because of our internal pressure)

    Comment by Ian
    23.
    August 8, 2008
    1:40 pm

    Bryan, Ian is correct on a number of things here, but the conclusions he infers are unexpected.

    Labour may well have a different ideology, but most of the electorate seems not to share it; therefore Labour is not in power.

    “Power at all cost” IS a guiding policy - that is a fact. One of the most honest statements I ever heard made in Dail Eireann was: “There is no hidden agenda here, Deputy Kenny; the only agenda that anyone has in this house is to stay in this house.”

    Nobody disagreed with him; not one member of ANY party.

    With power and retaining power as the ultimate goal, a party then engages in compromise-for-concensus for the necessity of appealing to the broadest possible electorate.

    If the people don’t like the concensus of policies the party arrives at, what is the point?

    That is certainly one of the reasons why FF is in power and LAB is not. The Green Party did this last year, while LAB refused to consider it. QED.

    Comment by Tim

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