outsidein

The Hijab

July 3, 2008 @ 1:41 pm | by Bryan

Is it just me of is the issue of the hijab (headscarf) getting out of hand? The Minister for Education, Batt O’Keeffe has asked Conor Lenihan, Integration Minister, for help. He wants to know if there should be a national policy on the wearing of the hijab in schools. Minister Lenihan then passed the issue on to school principals. Talk about a high profile game of hot potato.

Honestly, what is the big deal? It’s just a piece of cloth isn’t it? If young Muslim ladies, or their parents for that matter, want them to wear it, what’s the problem? Should this really be taking up two ministers’ time as well as that of thousands of school principals? Aren’t there more serious issues to deal with, like renovating old schools and building new ones? Is this just a silly diversion to get us all thinking about something inconsequential, or do people really care about it?

Let’s say that it is a genuine concern. What is the real underlying issue here? It cannot be about clothing. Or at least I really hope we aren’t that petty as a society. Is it about Islam, or religion itself? Either way, if there is going to be a debate, let it be about Islam or religion as a whole and their place in contemporary Irish society.

61 Comments »

July 3, 2008
2:33 pm

It depends who you talk to whether it is a big deal or not.

For me, I think allowing students to wear compulsory (to their faith) pieces of religious dress is fine as long as it is within reason. For instance, cross around the neck or hijab is fine. But a burka is not workable in a school with a uniform policy, and I’m not sure how tolerant I would be of allowing a woman to be hidden away from the world in such an outfit at school, no matter how much cultural relativism we engage ourselves in.

I think many people would be comfortable if regulations deployed common sense with regard the hijab, but made a clear demarcation line with something like the burka.

Comment by Steve K

July 3, 2008
2:38 pm

The argument is based on the fear in the Western world of Islamisation, I think; there seems to be a strong view, in Ireland and the UK, that Muslims operate through infiltration, instead of integration. This isn’t necessarily my view, but I think it is this that is driving the argument; parents say that hijabs create further divisions between children who may already have trouble integrating or making friends.

But these same parents don’t seem to have any qualms with decking their kids out in €200 runners, and bringing them up happy, safe and smug in the knowledge that black people are “blackies” and that they’re much richer than everyone else (one delightful child I had the pleasure to meet recently - and honestly, he had all three of these traits). His parents don’t seem to think that his attitude is divisive - people seem to argue for what suits them. But then, we already knew that.

The problem is that our Government seems to refuse to overlook “petty” quibbles; democracy is all well and good, but if something is bred of xenophobia (in a lot of cases), then, should they not rise above it? How much is this argument costing us, exactly?

Comment by Rosemary

July 3, 2008
2:40 pm

Well, if it’s just a price of cloth, then they won’t mind removing it, will they?

Comment by Brian

July 3, 2008
2:43 pm

ah, the great european hijab debates. They really are bizarre. As you say, it is just a piece of headgear with symbolism just as head scarves worn by european women had symbolism until the later years of the last century.

Hijabs are common in state schools in both Kenya and Tanzania and I’m sure other places too. Europe could learn much from certain African states when it comes to integration. It is not all bad you know (not all good either, but there you are)

Comment by kifimbocheza

July 3, 2008
2:54 pm

It is a media created problem imported from the UK. As fas as I know, it’s never been an issue in Ireland, I can’t recall an example of where a school had to deal with the issue. One school wrote to dept of education for advice as it conflicted with their rules on uniform. The school decided to allow the head scarf.

The Govt is trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist, unlike lessons in prefabs

Comment by nerraw

July 3, 2008
2:55 pm

i think due to the nature of how schools have been run in ireland, by the Christian Brothers, unlike the majority of schools in the UK or mainland Europe, there is a more complex issue interwining religion and education at the most fundamental levels in Irish society than would be encountered in the UK and French ‘issue’ regarding the Hijab. This is not to say it is becoming a problem here its just removing religious issues from a system bourne of the religious institutions may take time.

I think the majority of Irish people have no problem with it and dont see it as an issue as you pointed out so rightly there is greater matters at stake regarding class sizes, school availability and the maintenance of buildings.

I think the government are looking to avoid making a statement thats going to backfire on them in future. The current trend of sussing out the word on the ground started in the Lisbon aftermath and is a policy we may see this current government employ right across the political landscape to try and cover their asses.

We have already had conflict of religion and education on this island most notably in the North integrating Catholic and Protestant communities as early as possible in a common educational policy that appears to be working. So it is clear communities can work beyond making religious beliefs a problem in education in Ireland.

And as has been pointed out in print before we’ve had nuns wearing headdress for years in schools, why is it an issue now?

Comment by paul m

July 3, 2008
2:58 pm

Bryan,
In Holland this is a very hot issue but more in relation to the burkha which covers the face as well so that you can’t see the person.
The arguments against headscarves vary from the fact that it is not reasonable to publicly display your religious beliefs through to objections on the grounds of why headscarves are worn by muslims. Some people see it as oppressive to women.
Personally I am not bothered by it as nuns also wear veils and I grew up seeing plenty of nuns.
It does tend to make women less attractive too which is a pity but c’est la vie.

Comment by Aidan

July 3, 2008
2:58 pm

Eh, not exactly, Bryan. While a ‘national policy’ on the wearing of the hijab in schools is hardly that important (compared to school infrastructure) it tells us a lot about how integration could occur / not occur here in the coming years. Up to now it has just been a case of hold the line until a panic ensues on Joe Duffy. With the hijab issue (which will not be ’solved’) I suspect that many principals up and down the country are merely making sensible decisions locally in the absence of some guts from Marlborough Street.

Comment by 73man

July 3, 2008
3:08 pm

Unfortunately Brian, you do not understand this issue which you are writing about and how it is affecting the Irish physic. The issue is not just about “a piece of cloth” as you so blithe put it, it about cultures. Sure if the hajab was only about covering the head, that’s fine (it happened here in years gone by for women to protect their modesty). However to see young girls aged 9 and younger wearing the hijab is disgraceful, it is obviously not a decision they have reached of their own free will and this is persistent through all ages for a woman. The woman is pressured into wearing this in their family by male and long indoctrinated older females. I for one as an Irish person feel the this “piece of cloth” represents repression of women and should not be welcome in my country. Fine in their own country, fine Irish/Christian women should cover themselves in Muslim countries if required too but not fine in my country.

Comment by Desmond

10.

July 3, 2008
5:11 pm

I think there are two reaons why people are making an issue of this…..

1. Are muslim girls being forced by their parents to wear the hijab? Are they being set apart from non-muslim girls by wearing them?

2. Is this a method of creeping in demands? Will muslim parents next want pork taken off school menu’s for instance? Will they want boys and girls getting seperate lessons when there is a sufficient number of Muslims in a school, which is only a matter of time?

I think irish people are taking a look acrosss the water to the UK and seeing how fractured society is getting over there, and are worried that we are rushing blindly down the same path

Comment by paddy

11.

July 3, 2008
5:25 pm

In my school days, they tried to enforce a ’sideburn length’ policy for the older boys. You couldn’t have any real facial hair actually - not that many of us could grow much..
Schools are often power crazy and anything outside the norm is frowned upon. Look at the hair colouring fiascos that pop up all the time with students being suspended and expelled. The hijab is just another ‘unusual’ thing for schools to try and block and hopefully the idiots that run our education system will see that it does not matter what the bloody students are wearing, what matters is teaching and learning. As always, the government are focusing on something that is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Who gives a crap if someone is wearing a hijab or a crucifix or a mohawk? Schools and society ARE that petty. How depressing is that..

Comment by adam

12.

July 3, 2008
6:42 pm

The underlying issue is, as with the institutions of many religions, that it is sexist. In a country where gender identification is regarded as a matter of choice, it is reasonable that restrictive clothing requirements which are applied only one birth gender should be questioned.

All enforced dress codes which are applied to only one gender should be an affront to human dignity.

Comment by Nora

13.

July 3, 2008
7:22 pm

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Its seems like half of us feel this is all just sillyness. Quite a few people though feel there are issues to do with sexism or identity?

About the sexism issue, how come people in America don’t seem to think the hijab is a big deal. Or am I just uninformed? And even if kids don’t really have a choice, I had to go to mass growing up regardless of how I felt. When I grew older, I developed my own religious identity. Is there a difference between a little girl having to wear a hijab and a little boy having to go to mass or become an alter boy?

And w.r.t. identity and integration - that’s a tougher issue. At the end of the day, Irish people get to decide what Ireland becomes. Countries like Iran are not very tolerant of religious diversity and Western countries do not have to be any different. But does anyone really want Ireland to be in any way associated with present day Iran?

Comment by Bryan

14.

July 3, 2008
8:17 pm

Desmond, Bryan is right and, sorry, but you are wrong when you say that “it is obviously not a decision they have reached of their own free will” as if this is some huge affront to human rights. Making my communion was not a decision I made, “of my own free will”; nor, come to think of it, was going to school in the first place. Parents have a right to raise and educate their children in as religious a manner as they choose; and there are plenty of educated Muslim women who wear hijabs well into old age, well past the age at which it could be forced upon them.

Sexism has gone mad; this is a sexist issue in the same way that women not having urinals in their toilets is a sexist issue. Urinals are for boys; in Islam, hijabs are for girls. There are a lot of cultural norms that we accept, even though they are sexist; the lack of acceptance by irish people of the hijab being worn by children, or by any women, is a fundamental lack of understanding - or, rather, a lack of any desire to understand - Muslim faith and culture.

Comment by Rosemary

15.

July 3, 2008
9:48 pm

The irish word for girl is cáilín. According to Very Rev Ulick Bourke’s College Irish Grammar (M.H. Gill 1879) cáilín is derived from caile, which originally denoted the wearer of the cala, a hood of the early Irish. This is why the word cáilín is, counterintuitively, a masculine noun.

Comment by páid

16.

July 3, 2008
11:06 pm

Bryan,
Integrate or leave.

Comment by Brian

17.

July 3, 2008
11:20 pm

Rosemary - Thanks… thanks lots.

Paid - I had no idea. I suspect there are many like me. Thanks.

Brian - You raise an interesting point. People like to throw that word around. What does it mean to ‘integrate’? How do I know once I’m there? I think it’s a lazy word. I don’t go to a catholic church and I’m not a huge fan of the pub scene. But surely there is more to Irish life and culture than the church and the local. So by your standards, what do I need to do to be welcome here?

Comment by Bryan

18.

July 4, 2008
12:01 am

Welcome to the blogosphere, Bryan! Best of luck with the new blog.

Bryan said: About the sexism issue, how come people in America don’t seem to think the hijab is a big deal. Or am I just uninformed?

I think you are uninformed, Bryan. If you look around on American blogs such as VDare I think you’ll find that a great many Americans are not keen on hijabs.

Bryan said: At the end of the day, Irish people get to decide what Ireland becomes.

I don’t agree with you. The latest RedC poll conducted for the Sunday Business Post showed that 59% of the people want “much stricter limits” on immigration to this country. That is up from 54% in 2006. And, yet, immigration continues unabated. And still no debate on immigration in the Dáil — nor has there ever been one!

Irish people are not getting to decide what Ireland becomes. Not by a long shot.

Comment by Hibernia Girl

19.

July 4, 2008
6:37 am

Desmond - “fine in their own country”??? Where does this leave Irish-born people who are Muslim, or Muslim people who have made Ireland their permanent home? Isn’t Ireland “their own” country and don’t they have the right to religious freedom like everybody else?

Brian - I agree with Bryan. Think hard before bandying the “integrate” word about. As an Irishwoman who has lived and worked in three other countries, the demand to “integrate” really only comes across as a lack of acceptance of my accent/skin colour/knowledge of local history/understanding and love of the local sport/whatever. Do you really mean to narrow Ireland’s welcome down to those who are exactly like you in every way? How sad.

Does nobody else see the irony of a major discussion on females wearing headscarves at school when many of my generation were taught in the very same schools by nuns who wore some of the most outlandish headgear ever?

Comment by Mairead

20.

July 4, 2008
9:30 am

It’s quite simple (beyond people living within the tails of the bell curve): there’s no problem with a head scarf and modest clothing but we are deeply uncomfortable with a face veil or more extreme, dramatic coverings which to my mind have more to do with propaganda than religion.

Comment by Podge

21.

July 4, 2008
11:06 am

“Bryan,
Integrate or leave.” - Brian

Integrate -
verb (used with object) - to give or cause to give equal opportunity and consideration to (a racial, religious, or ethnic group or a member of such a group): to integrate minority groups in the school system
(used without object) - to meld with and become part of the dominant culture.

The better part of me is hoping Brian refers to the former. However myself I would prefer to hear the word integral used instead of integrate.

“So by your standards, what do I need to do to be welcome here?” - Bryan

May i suggest either reading or watching the film version of John B. Keanes The Field. A great piece of work, that can be both disturbing and evocative in its portrayal of some of the more introspective aspects of Irish society. Unsurprisingly aspects of it are just as relevant to gaining an insight in a certain Irish mindset today as they were 30 years ago. It wont help or hinder you being welcome here but it makes for some interesting discussion on trying to ‘integrate’

I’ll finish with a tip of the cap to The Bard;

To be, or not to be, that is the Question:
Whether ’tis Nobler in the minde to suffer
The Slings and Arrowes of outragious Fortune,
Or to take Armes against a Sea of troubles,

Comment by paul m

22.

July 4, 2008
11:59 am

You know, it they just got rid of school uniforms, most of the problems regarding school would go away.

People say that deviations from the standard uniform should be allowed in cases where a person’s religion decrees a certain dress code is obigatory. But why is religious tradition so exceptional? There have probably been goths, punks and the like who felt just as strongly about the dress code adopted by their chosen sub-culture as some Muslims feel about the hijab. It’s offensive to suggest that just because somebody’s preferred mode of dress is the result of religious convictions, they should be treated differently from other individuals whose preferred mode of dress is the result of a different set of convictions.

Another problem exists in the way that there are different traditions within the same religions. Some female followers of Islam feel that they are obliged to wear a burka, yet many do not. Is it part of Islam or not? Who is supposed to adjicate on such matters, the principal?

What I find truely bizzare is the situation in some countries where Sikhs, unlike the rest of the population, are not obliged to wear helmets on building sites or on motorcycles. Unfortunately, Sikhs are just as vulnerable as the rest of us to head trauma.

Comment by Niall

23.

July 4, 2008
12:09 pm

Hibernia Girl - Thanks for the welcome…and the smiley face! I have a question for you. About 70% of immigrnts here are from EU countries. I’m curious, people who want immigration to slow down or stop, are they worried about just the non-EU migrants? Not much can be done about the guys from EU states. And about the Dail, I totally agree with you. It’s not right that they ignore issues that concern people.

Mairead - My mum’s big sister is a nun. I’ve never seen her hair!

Podge - How much less of a propaganda statement is a priest’s collar? Don’t get me wrong, I agree with challenges to the Burka on security grounds at places like airports. But don’t all religions use a certain level of ‘propaganda’?

Paul M - Thanks Paul, I’ll go and check out ‘the Field’

Comment by Bryan

24.

July 4, 2008
5:24 pm

I don’t know Niall. Religion is a powerful thing. So much so that some people would rather risk injury than go against it.

Comment by Bryan

25.

July 5, 2008
8:59 am

I appreciate some of the comments made on this blog site. It has been of help and will be of use when drawing up guidelines or otherwise in relation to school uniforms.

Many of the contributions mirror the comments I have received from the 4,000 or so school Principals that I have written to on this matter.

I shall make a decision, one way or the other, before the summer is out. I agree with the contributor who stated that there are far more important issues affecting integration and immigration than this particular controversy.

For this reason we have been planning for some time a conference on diversity with regard to the education system. That conference on devising an integration strategy for schools will be held in the autumn.

Regards - Conor Lenihan T.D., Minister for Integration.

Comment by Conor Lenihan T.D., Minister for Integration

26.

July 5, 2008
6:52 pm

There is nothing ironic about the nuns/veil issue here. The nuns wore these in their OWN schools. The people who want to wear hijabs in school are equally free to build and run THEIR own schools. A word of warning: bend the school’s uniform code for the hijab and then they will try to insist that no male teaches their daughter.

Comment by Tim

27.

July 5, 2008
8:54 pm

I find it incredible that the Hijab has become an issue not long after the Department of Education have issued guidelines for interculturalism in the primary classroom. How can different religions and cultures be shared and celebrated as a positive learning experience for both Irish and international pupils if the powers that be can’t see the effects of such a debate. I completed my education in the Irish system from primary to third level. It was not until I left secondary school that I learned anything of great significance about Islam, Hinduism, Seikhism and other religions. Unfortunately this variety of ignorance is very much a problem amongst the Irish today and banning Hijab’s, while a small issue in light of many others, is just another bid to keep other religions and cultures in submission, requiring that they conform to our ways before we allow the necessary steps toward integration that today’s diversifying Ireland needs. It is unfortunate that we have become a state of double standards as we would fight for our children to be without a Hijab in a predominantly muslim school abroad. Why do we lend ourselves to such hypocracy? Because we can?

Comment by Little Miss

28.

July 6, 2008
12:50 am

Irish society is constantly developing. This process of development comes on many fronts. This once traditional Catholic society is being changed by myriad forces from the introduction of divorce, to the reduction in numbers attending church on a weekly basis and, lately, the proposed legislation on civil unions that will seek to address the concerns of both same-sex and opposite-sex co-habiting couples.

The debate on immigration falls into the much larger sphere of the future direction of Irish society. Citizens of this country are aware of the changes that have occurred in the landscape of their society. One could not expect to be presented with the same level of diversity while walking down Henry Street or Grafton Street during the early 1990s. With this change has come a fear by sections of the Irish public that the nature of Irish society will be radically altered.

But what is the nature of this society that is in danger of mutation to begin with? Surely, it is not something so trivial as pub culture. Most immigrants who have come to this country do drink and not every Irish person does. Is it our Catholic identity? Well, that was being eroded well before the current wave of immigration. The perception of Ireland as being comprised of a white rural population is changing. Though if we are afraid of Ireland becoming less white I am not sure there is an argument to counter that but I don’t believe closing one’s country to foreigners would benefit the country.

What does define Ireland is its democratic nature, the right to free speech, the right to be treated equally before the law, to own property and all the positive aspects that are part of the package of liberal democracies.

The issue of wearing the hijab in school or at one’s workplace does not threaten to bring down the fundamental values of the Irish state. To argue that it holds stepping-stones like properties would be a mistake. I have read arguments that claim that pork will be the next thing to go on the menu. Is this really where the argument has gone? Of course, it’s not just Muslim girls who don’t eat pork in any case. You have to think of the Jews and Hindus. But if you want someone more local if you try to argue that these people could not be Irish what of the growing vegetarian and pescetarian community.

Irish society is changing but this is not a negative thing. We are becoming a cosmopolitan society and assuming the benefits that come from such a society. However, there will be challenges along the way and no doubt certain growing pains. However, we should not seek to create problems and tension where none has existed. I look forward to witnessing Ireland’s development and expect that this state will continue to find success (once we get through the recession that is apparently on its way).

Comment by Umar Ahmed

29.

July 6, 2008
9:35 pm

Bryan said: “About 70% of immigrnts here are from EU countries. I’m curious, people who want immigration to slow down or stop, are they worried about just the non-EU migrants? Not much can be done about the guys from EU states.”

Good question, Bryan. I can’t answer for other people, but as for myself I am concerned about ALL mass immigration to Ireland (and to other countries for that matter), whether we’re talking about peoples from the EU or Asia or Africa or the Americas. Some immigration is ok, but when a country winds up with an immigrant population of somewhere between 13-15% in a short space of time, that just seems to be a recipe for disaster to me.

I am concerned about three things: 1) that Irish people will be disadvantaged either now or in the future due to the influx of so many other peoples to our country; 2) that the character/culture of Ireland will be changed beyond recognition; and 3) that there will be conflict between all these different peoples that are living on this small island.

The first two points are self-explanatory I think. The third one is something that people nowadays seem to overlook in our PC-thinking world. People seem to have forgotten that (unfortunately) different groups of people tend to NOT get along with one another. I don’t like it any more than anyone else does, but I’m not going to pretend ethnic/racial conflicts don’t happen just to be politically correct.

I’m not sure where you are from, Bryan — but you mention Zimbabwe in one of your other posts and that you know people back there who are suffering because of all the conflicts there. Perhaps I’m mistaken, but my understanding is that a good deal of that conflict is driven by rivalries/competition between different ethnic groups — the Zezuru & Karanga vs. other Shona peoples as well as Ndebele groups. So, you should know yourself that different groups of peoples just don’t get along — especially when there is competition over resources or political power, etc.

We’re, of course, no strangers to ethnic conflicts in Ireland ourselves. Ireland saw a migration of people from southern Scotland/northern England to Ulster several centuries ago. At the time, that migration resulted in a 10 per cent migrant population on the island. We can all see how well that migration has gone.

The enouragement of mass migrations of people is a dangerous game. We need to have an informed debate on this in Ireland. I hope it will happen sooner rather than later.

Comment by Hibernia Girl

30.

July 6, 2008
10:52 pm

Umar and Little Miss, I agree with you. But I guess we need to address Tim and Hibernia Girl’s fears. Hibernia Girl, I’m Zimbabwean. The conflict there isn’t an ethnic one. There are plenty of kids now who wouldn’t know if they were Zezuru or Karanga. There are some ethnic tensions in parts of Africa, but in the vast majority of cases, African countries are plural societies which seem to get on. I’m not convinced that ethnic differences necessarily breed tension or conflict.

About Ireland’s culture. It is probably more at risk from American TV and pop culture than from immigrants in my opinion. Besides, culture is dynamic - it changes by definition. Can’t that change be positive? I agree that there are dangers in sudden, drastic population movements, but what would have happened had the Irish fleeing the famine been kicked out of Australia, America and the UK? But that aside, in light of the fact that EU membership means that huge population flows are almost inevitable, what would your solution be?

Comment by Bryan

31.

July 6, 2008
11:54 pm

Bryan: “The conflict there isn’t an ethnic one.”

Really?

Tribal Rivalry May Split ZANU PF

And the MDC split in ‘05 — not ethnic?

Zimbabwe bulletin — Home Office

Comment by Hibernia Girl

32.

July 7, 2008
12:12 am

Bryan: “About Ireland’s culture. It is probably more at risk from American TV and pop culture than from immigrants in my opinion.”

You have a very good point there! The difference, though, is that people can turn their tellies off if they don’t like watching “Desparate Housewives” or whatever is the current favourite. With mass immigration (and it’s mass immigration that I think is concerning), we haven’t had an opportunity to make a choice. No debate in the Dáil — no referendum on immigration — even though 59 per cent of people in Ireland want “much stricter limits” on immigration. Something’s not right with this picture.

Cultures change, of course — and yes cultural change can be terrific. But, we shouldn’t confound cultural change with population change.

You bring up as example the Irish fleeing Ireland during the famine. Sure — the Irish benefitted by being able to emigrate, but there are two sides to every story. Mass immigration of Europeans to Australia and North America led to the devastation of the native populations there. I’m not saying that the same thing will happen here in Ireland or Europe today — I’m just trying to make the point that there are always effects on native populations when large groups of migrants enter their lands and those effects are not always positive.

Ask yourself, how would you and your family and friends feel if 2 million Mozambiquans migrated to Zimbabwe (that would then be a 15% immigration population)? Or 2 million Chinese? How about 2 million Europeans? I would guess at the very least that you and your family and friends would be concerned about your futures and the future of your country and changes to your culture.

Regarding the EU — well, I’m pretty negative as far as the EU goes. I’d like to see us out of the EU. I know that’s not very realistic, but a girl can dream can’t she?

Comment by Hibernia Girl

33.

July 7, 2008
8:55 am

I am really disheartened to read all the comments here. Most of them show the complete lack of understanding Irish people have of Islam and its doctrines.
Look at other countries in Europe - the UK, Sweden, Denmanrk, Holland, France etc and look at the problems they have with the muslim community.

To say that it is just a piece of cloth is incredibly ignorant and an absolute insult to all the girls who are living in fear of their families. We have not had to deal with honor killings in Ireland yet.
I think people need to educate themselves on the political side of Islam and then aske the question whether we feel that it has a place in our society.

I feel that this blog is not only completely biased, but also written by someone who actually doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about.
Bryan, you should inform yourself - check out Gates of Vienna, jihadwatch etc.
I would prefer to read a blog by someone who isn’t singing the pc-tune but rather approaches these kind of subjects in a factual, informed way.
Mona

Comment by Mona

34.

July 7, 2008
11:24 am

Hibernia girl,,,you mentioned the need for an informed debate in your post, and then go on to lecture someone who is actually from Zimbabwe about the racial/ethnic basis of the conflict there, based on some internet news reports?????? An informed debate surely requires listening to informed people occasionally right, you should try it some time.
and Mona, perhaps you need to educate yourself on the many millions of muslims who dont abuse their female children, pracrice honour killings and go about killing infidels, they do actually exist believe it or not, just like the other ones who do these bad things. Thats not being politically correct, thats just the way it is. Also, you describe this blog as biased when the lead post asks lots of questions about this issue and then askes people to debate it,,,,thats biased is it,,,,really,? Any one else notice how political correctness is always trotted out by the prejudiced…
Nice blog bryan, but please dont be afraid to challenge the more outrageous comments, remember Godwin’s law, “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”

Comment by enda

35.

July 7, 2008
2:13 pm

Mona says: To say that it is just a piece of cloth is incredibly ignorant and an absolute insult to all the girls who are living in fear of their families.

The problem with this argument is that is assumes all Muslim women who wear the hijab are doing it simply because they are scared to. I think this is very presumptuous, as many Muslim women in Ireland are quite comfortable with their faith and the role of the hijab.

You could argue that it is implicitly sexist to require a woman to cover herself, and you may have a point. But don’t assume to speak for Muslim women that have opposite opinions and are quite happy to show their faith in this way.

Comment by Steve K

36.

July 7, 2008
2:17 pm

Bryan, thanks for reading and thinking about my comment. I was not, however expressing a “fear” of muslim parents demanding that their daughters have no male teachers. I was expressing a real experience in Ireland already. I witnessed this a number of years ago, where the father (an irishman who converted to islam) tried to insist that the principal of a school reschedule a male teacher’s entire timetable for the year in order to ensure that the school comply with HIS religious mores (his wife and daughter were not permitted to speak) which forbid girls being taught in school by men. Was this an attempt to discriminate against the teacher on the grounds of gender, religion or both? Was it an attempt to bully the principal into accepting discrmination aginst the male teacher, or his female family members, or all of the above?
My point is a simple one: since parents are free to choose where to send their children to school, let them send them to one whose rules and uniform/dress code they agree with. No-one has, or should have, the right to force their culture upon an establishment of a different culture. There are Gaelscoileanna, Educate Together schools, Church of Ireland schools, Community Comprehensive schools, VECs and Catholic schools. Take your pick, everybody! Or, open one of your own hue.

But, having so chosen, it is only reasonable that you comply with its ethos, rules and dress code.

Comment by Tim

37.

July 7, 2008
2:40 pm

Hibernia Girl - Since the bulk of immigrants are from the EU, and Ireland isn’t going to opt out of the EU, what do you suggest? What would you like to see happen?

Mona - How many Muslims do you personally know? how many have you sat down with and asked about their beliefs? Some of things that are said of Muslims on those sites you recommended were said about black, and Irish people once upon a time.

Steve K & Enda - I agree. And thanks Enda.

Tim - It’s an interesting point you raise. I think though that the official policy is to get ‘one size fits all’ schools.

Comment by Bryan

38.

July 7, 2008
2:48 pm

But Steve, we are not talking about women here, we are talking about children. Huge difference. Why do little girls need to dress moderately? Are they sexual objects?

And Enda, stop putting words in my mouth. I have never said that all muslims engage in terrorism or honor killings. Does that mean that we can’t discuss the effects of the ones that do?
And please, don’t insult my intelligence or knowledge by referring to me as prejudiced. I am the one asking for an open debate, beyond the opinions of the ‘know it all’s’. Let me ask you, have you lived in a Europeean country that has a large muslim population?

This blog is not debating the issue. It is raising a few questions and dismissing them as no big deal. Is that what you consider an open, constructive and informed debate?

Comment by Mona

39.

July 7, 2008
2:50 pm

Bryan - I have lived amongst and grown up with muslims. Please do not assume that I am basing my opinions on something I read in a paper or some scaremongering from a rightwing party.

Being Irish and being black are not the same as being a muslim. The latter is not a race, it is a choice.

Comment by Mona

40.

July 7, 2008
2:54 pm

Okay Mona, at the risk of looking like I’m pandering to you… Mona, please tell me your side of things. Are you unhappy about Islam in general, the hijab issue spaecifically? What do you think are the problems and what do you think are the solutions. Also, do you agree that there is a real racist element in some of those sites you highlighted?

Comment by Bryan

41.

July 7, 2008
3:11 pm

Bryan, please do point out the racist element???
Again, being a muslim is a choice. If these sites criticized Scientology, would you deem them racist?
Pulling the race card is equivalent to Godwin’s law imo and stifles any kind of debate.
Ok. I don’t have a problem with Islam as a theology. Islam as an ideology on the other hand is completely different. Are you familiar with Sharia law? Have your read the Quran? Because if you haven’t, this discussion is rather pointless.

I think there is only one solution — full integration. The hijab is, whether you like it or not, a symbol of oppression. If men cannot restrain themselves but need women to dress modestly, then perhaps we should address that instead. Maybe a male chastity belt?

Ireland does not have the problems other European countries have as the muslim community is relative small. Are you aware of the problems other countries have? Again, if we’re going to pretend that all is rosy and this is problem created by people who are prejudiced, we’re going to get nowhere.
Why don’t you tell me - why do little girls need to cover themselves up?
Are they sexual objects?

Comment by Mona

42.

July 7, 2008
3:14 pm

Thanks, Bryan, but that is precicely the point: “one size” does NOT fit all - never has, never will. Nor should we be trying to make it so. Let us maintain, facilitate and celebrate diversity without bullying eachother into adopting one or other outlook. The hijab issue in a catholic school cannot be called bullying the muslim to conform to catholic culture, since the muslim has a CHOICE of which type of school/ethos the wish to send their children to. They hae the choice, so were is the problem? Unless this really IS about muslims bullying others into adopting their ways.

Comment by Tim

43.

July 7, 2008
4:59 pm

Mona, what is ‘full integration’?

Before we can talk about integration, multiculturalism or whichever we have to agree on definitions surely. I can cast my mind back to my first year in a Trinity College sociology classroom where we were asked to come up with a definition of ‘Irishness’. The silence that invaded the room had little to do with the lack of education or understanding that those in the room had but the difficulty that is associated with defining such a concept. I believe that it is the fundamental structure of Irish society that counts the most in this debate and I doubt very much that this is going to be altered as a consequence of the wearing of religious symbols by any group.

You have portrayed yourself as a well-versed individual with experience in different cultures. Taking your strong intellect as the starting point, can you provide me with the definition of what it means to be Irish.

If you can, then I can see which boxes I tick and rate my level of ‘Irishness’.

I await, with eager anticipation, your verdict.

Comment by Umar Ahmed

44.

July 7, 2008
5:22 pm

Bryan, I think most people understood what your meaning was when you used the word ‘racist’. Of course, while not fully correct, it is rather pedantic for Mona to complain of its usage. Might I suggest xenophobic in its place.

Mona, if Bryan’s question was reworked in this light would you care to address his concerns? Are these type of sites free from xenophobia?

Comment by Umar Ahmed

45.

July 7, 2008
6:08 pm

But Steve, we are not talking about women here, we are talking about children. Huge difference. Why do little girls need to dress moderately? Are they sexual objects?

Every culture indoctrinates Mona - and in the absence of agreement between cultures on every cultural point we practice tolerance.

Essentially I agree with you that children should not be indoctrinated into wearing a hijab, just like I think children should not be indoctrinated into the Catholic religion by school or parents, or indoctrinated into poverty because they were born in the Liberties. Ideally these would be choices made during adult life.

However like it or not children are indoctrinated with all sorts of negative stereotypes of themselves and others by their parents and it is not fair to pick something like the hijab out for special attention, especially as we may be practicing in hypocrisy.

It’s important that we as a society show that we are willing to tolerate cultural differences within reason. We should be keenly aware that our parents’ generation accepted Magdalene laundries and sexual abuse by clergy. That’s not to say we should accept burkas in schools, or the introduction of Sharia into our country, these are simply not compatible with our way of life.

There is a downside to tolerance over something like the hijab Mona, I won’t deny that. But given the negatives in every culture I think we should let Muslim girls have the hijab chat with their parents when they start to approach adulthood, and let their community get on with it.

Comment by Steve K

46.

July 8, 2008
11:33 am

Bryan, you have not answered my question. Are little girls sexual objects?
You ask me to define Irishness. To be honest, I think that is a question only each individual can answer. What is Irishness to me, might not be Irishness to you.
When I say full integration, I am referring to our cultural values, the values that we are currently adhering to, before anyone starts bringing up what is used to be like in Ireland.
I embrace diversity. However, certain cultural elements are not compatible with our values. Female genital mutilation, honor killings, arranged marriages where the bride is often still no more than a child.
And yes, these are not exclusively muslim values, but certainly present in a lot of muslim societies.

It is most typical to refer to any kind of criticism f Islam as racist or xenophobic. Ahain, if I had mentioned sites that criticized Scientology, Catholicism, Mormons etc, would these words have been used? This is not a rhetorical question.

Steve, saying that these girls should take it up with their communities only shows how little you know about the issue.
Have you any idea how many girls that are currently living underground in Scandinavia, in fear of their lives, because they did just that?

Sura 4:43 “Muslims, draw not near unto prayer…(if) ye have touched women…then go to high clean soil and rub your face and your hands.”

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing”

Bryan, when you have answered my questions I shall debate this issue further with you.

Comment by Mona

47.

July 8, 2008
11:47 am

Mona, I’m a Christian. If I lived in the states, I might be one of those people they refer to as the religious right. And I haven’t read the Qu’oran. But you can take Christian scripture out of context and make it mean whatever you like. Psalm 137.9 for example says ‘Happy are those who seize your infants and dash them against the rocks.’

I repect the fact that there are values you abhorr. I sometimes feel that Western society wrongly asigns some values to Islam and other cultures that are foreign. So I do not see how a child wearing a hijab equates to her being a sex object for example. At the end of the day though, maybe you and I are going to have to agree to disagree? I understand and largely agree with Steve K and Umar. Although I think I understand where you are coming from a little better, I disagree with a lot of your views.

Comment by Bryan

48.

July 8, 2008
1:27 pm

Bryan, the fact that we can respectfully disagree is one of the many beautiful things in a democracy.

I would not consider myself a Christian, but I do live by the Christian values and I know that there are many concepts in the different scriptures that I would find appalling.
However, and this is a big one. Jesus Crist came with love, compassion and forgiveness and any true Cristian should surely model him/herself on Christ, right?
And would it not also then be true to say that any good and faithful muslin should model himself on Mohammed?
What do we know about Mohammed? Who was he?
I think that people need to educate themselves before assuming that Islam and Christianity are even remotely similar, despite the Quran’s mentioning of several Christian prophets.

You say that you can’t see how the hijab equates a child to being a sexual object. But what does it stand for, in your opinion?

And finally I’d like to know why it is that you are a racist or a xenophobe when criticizing Islam, but not any other religion?

Comment by Mona

49.

July 8, 2008
9:20 pm

Mona, you can be xenophobic when criticising any religion, ethnic group or race. It all depends what way you criticise. This can be done constructively but it can also be done from a very narrow-minded, uneducated and fearful way. Some manage to effectively criticise in a constructive manner. Some don’t. I think it is rather defensive to assume that those involved in this discussion think it xenophobic to criticise Islam and not others. I think that it is also a gross misrepresentation of the opinions of those involved but I expect you already knew that.

Comment by Umar Ahmed

50.

July 9, 2008
2:06 pm

There is no need to respond by disparaging somebody’s level of knowledge of a subject.

If women are being forced to “go underground” from violent threats here in Ireland then that is a subject for the Gardaí and social services. Though I do not believe this is a widespread issue here.

As for Scandanavia, the issue of Muslim integration is different to here.

Comment by Steve K

51.

July 9, 2008
10:24 pm

Look, there really isn’t any question regarding the fundamental incompatibility of Islam with European culture and values, we all know that. The only real question is how many colonists (Muslims, in this case) a country can tolerate before the troubles start. It always starts with small things, like the hijab, then it becomes pork on the menu, then it becomes taxi drivers refusing to take passengers with alcohol, then it becomes sexual “grooming” of little Europeans girls by Muslim men who see them as whores and therefore fair sexual game, and finally it becomes no-go areas where Europeans are not allowed.

We all know this. The pattern has repeated across Europe from Scandinavia to Spain. There are plenty of websites recounting the Muslim colonization of Europe in great detail.

The problem is that once you let enough of ANY alien people into your country they naturally establish a colony and resist any attempts to be assimilated. Look at the colonization of the USA. Look at the English colonization of Rhodesia. Look at the Muslim colonization of Denmark, Sweden, England and Germany. This is not rocket science, it is a natural demographic progression. Remember, they come to Ireland to make money as ALL colonists do. They do not — DO NOT — come in order to “become Irish”. Let enough in and they WILL establish separate ghettoes and enclaves just as the English did in Ireland. And ultimately they will fight back — brutally. [Jeez. Why am I explaining this? One would think the Irish of all people could see this in a heartbeat.]

Muslims are not evil, they are colonists. Of course the yare not going to beat you over the head right away. When you are only a small colony a certain accommodation to the natives is obviously required … in the beginning at least… just as the American colonists accommodated the Indians until their numbers were large enough.

So will it stop with the hijab? Of course not. It will be minarets and muezzin calls, prayer rugs in the streets and footwashing basins in every public building. You will take pork off the menu and pass laws against religious blasphemy. It will go on and on and on until one of you takes over from the other.

Please don’t get me wrong, though. There is no giant plan or conspiracy. There is just a natural process of a stronger culture replacing a weaker culture. Ask the freely sexual Hawaiians how easy it was to be replaced in their very own lands by American colonists. Only took about 80 years.

Comment by Big Bill

52.

July 14, 2008
3:24 am

I do not think that this should be viewed as just as an argument/ discussion of the hijab. State schools should be religion free, that way inconsequential, faith based but non mandatory items ie: Crosses/ charms, Kippot (Yarmulke) & Hijabs. Would be outlawed. Religion should not be taught in our schools. Schools are for learning of facts, No can say thar jesus christ (Rabbi Yeshua Ben Yussef), was the son of god, a cult leader or a Politically motivated Rabbi who taught of good times from the book of ruth. Take the religion out of schools, if a child is to wear a hijab, a kippot or even a cross they must do it off state grounds or in a faith vbased school.

Comment by Ruaidhri

53.

July 17, 2008
9:12 pm

I am a Muslim and i do wear the hijab
i think this shouldn’t be a big issue
Plus the hijab isn’t just a cloth of us Muslim girls
wear it has more meaning to that
Plus us Muslim girls aren’t forced to wear the hijab
Muslim girls shouldn’t be going underground for being scared of wearing the Hijab

i wore the hijab when i was four and I am still proud of it and won’t go underground if there are threats i would fight back

Mostly people view us Muslim as terrorists bombers all those horrible things and i think that is not right like the Americans who think of us Muslims like that
since September 11

Comment by Aaliayh Ali

54.

July 17, 2008
10:46 pm

Aaliayh - I am sorry for trivialising the hijab. I’m also a person of faith and my faith is really important to me. It must be a difficult time for Muslims. Hopefully we can in time all learn a bit more about each other hopefully that will sort out the suspicions

Comment by Bryan

55.

July 18, 2008
9:03 pm

Bryan -I am disappointed that you have not chosen to response to the points raised by Big Bill, which I feel encapsulate what many people who are nervous or indeed fearful about immigration especially Islamic migration in view of the changes those same migrants have made in other parts of Europe and the alienation caused to native people. While I accept the majority of them are peaceful they have unfortunately by remaining quiet or appearing overly sensitive ,allowed their religion to be defined in the eyes of many people, by manics and extremists.

Comment by David

56.

July 18, 2008
9:15 pm

David, I didn’t realise that it needed addressing. Rhodesia later became Zimbabwe, my country. What happened to my country was colonialism proper, and yet I still have my identity. I’m still a Zimbabwean Shona. The idea of Europe becoming an Islamic colony is… it’s not plausible. It isn’t going to happen.
There may be some tensions in the future, but that is something we are all going to have to overcome. In the same way that people from the global north have had the luxury to migrate to the south in the past, the reverse is inevitable. From my experience, that can have positive consequences for everyone.

Comment by Bryan

57.

July 19, 2008
2:01 pm

The idea of Europe or more probable, parts of it becoming an Islamic colony is not as implauusible as you suggest, bear in mind the Moors in Spain and the Turks in the Balkens and Hungary, only this time it is demographics. As intelligent beings we should be able to preempt future problems and deal with them now, we are lucky in Ireland we have the example of other countries and from what we can see many of us would be nervous on this issue.

Comment by David

58.

July 19, 2008
7:30 pm

Preempt future problems? Something about this ‘Islam is coming to get us’ conspiracy theory disturbs me. I’ve known plenty of Muslims who are decent people and some are really good friends. The most extemist thing done by a Muslim that I know was a root canal or tooth extraction, but she’s a dentist - she couldn’t help it.

Honestly, I think being anti - female, Jewish or Black is not fashionable any more. Since we seem to need to fear someone, it is Muslims who are being wrongly targetted.

Comment by Bryan

59.

July 19, 2008
11:26 pm

Its not so much a case of suddenly becoming anti this or anti that, the facts speak for themselves, 9/11, London, Casablanca, Bali, the murder of Theo Van Gogh, the riots in Oldham, all of which were initiated by Muslims, like it or lump it, their own community seems not to care that these extremists do this in their name, however they are quick to take offence as the riots over the Danish cartoons or what the pope said, or even the name of a teddy bear prove, people here are not being bigoted, but are making a rational decision based on what they see, they don’t see Muslims out protesting against Al Qaeda. What makes matters worst is any kind of debate on the subject quickly gets dressed up as Islamophobia, witness the Dispatches programme on Channel 4 last year “Undercover Mosque” in which undercover film crews recorded sermons on such noble topics as the stoning of homosexuals, the beating of women, and the necessity of carrying out Jihad. Later we learn the police in England were looking to charge Channel 4 with incitement to hatred. While I accept the majority are law abiding we do not do anybody favours by ignoring the problem.

Comment by David

60.

July 19, 2008
11:37 pm

Respectfully David, that’s absurd. YEs there have been terrorist attacks initiated by radicals in the name of religion, but those people are explicitly labelled RADICALS. They don’t represent the stance of your average Muslim. And in fairness, a lot of Imans have gone out of their way to denounce radicalism. Propagating this anti Islam sentiment will only worsen things.

The power the radicals have is in tying religion to oppression and discrimination. The best way to combat it is to challenge those ideas and act in an unoppressive way. The Civil Rights movement defeated segregation by challenging the idea of black people as some alien ‘other’.

You might want to check out ‘Three cups of tea’ here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0141034262/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE

Comment by Bryan

61.

September 7, 2008
3:53 pm

The problem with people like David is they want to use the actions of a few nutters as a rod to beat the backs of all Muslims. It was wrong when the British unfairly singled out ordinary Irish people for ’special attention’, it was wrong of the media to tar all Irish people with the same brush and it’s equally wrong to do the same to Muslims now. There were no calls for every Irish person to throw themselves prostrate in front of the world whenever there was an IRA bombing, why would anyone expect more from Muslims? What we have here is a very clear prejudice, disguised as concern.

Comment by Mujaahid