On The Record

  • This is what the future of the music business looks like

    October 28, 2008 @ 10:24 am | by Jim Carroll

    What were you doing last Wednesday night? I know, I know, it’s the kind of question they used to pose on Garda Patrol and still do on Law & Order. Anyway, there was football on TV but there was also a couple of gigs happening in Dublin. Sly & Robbie were in Tripod, Pivot were at Whelan’s and White Hinterland played at Crawdaddy. There were a couple of hundred to see Sly & Robbie, a hundred or so at Pivot and 18 paying punters to see White Hinterland. Lets stick with White Hinterland because there is a lesson here about what the future of this business looks like.

    First, the back-story. White Hinterland is the moniker used by Casey Dienel, a singer-songwriter from Portland, Oregon. Some hugely talented musicians help her out, but she’s the only one in the pics so she is White Hinterland for the purposes of this piece. She released the “Phylactery Factory” album earlier this year on the Dead Oceans label and she also released the excellent “Luniculaire EP”, five songs sung in French including covers of songs by Serge Gainsbourg, Francoise Hardy, and Brigitte Fontaine.

    In September, a couple of Irish tour dates were announced which saw White Hinterland play in Dublin, Cork, Belfast and Galway. This was, as far as I can work out, her first Irish tour.

    So anyway, she played in Dublin last week to about 18 paying punters and a couple of freebies. Lets do some back-of-an-envelope gigematics about this. The door take for the night would have been €252 (18 heads at €14 a pop). Dienel has a booking agent so she was probably on a fee for the night which, lets be honest, was probably not covered by what was taken at the door. We’ll say she got €500 for her troubles. The promoter took a bit of a hit on the show but I’m sure it’s not the first or last time that will happen.

    Now, you can look at the fact that White Hinterland pulled 18 punters to a midweek show in Dublin in two ways.

    One: well, what do you expect? She’s an unknown. Her records don’t get played on Irish radio shows and there was no big buzz about the show. There’s a recession on. People ain’t going to small shows because they’re spending all their cash on tickets for AC/DC and Oasis and Kings Of Leon. Hell, there was football on the TV.

    Two: an unknown act pulled 18 paying punters to a Dublin show on a slow, cold, dreary October night. Why did those 18 punters go to the show?

    I’m more interested in the second reason because it tells a great story about the future of this business. We could look at this from the point of view of the promoter and how Recession 2.0 and banks putting on the credit crunch is going to mean a few Irish promoters going out of business, but lets concentrate on the artist for this one. As I keep banging on here, every single new music business model which comes to market is aimed at acts with established audiences. These acts are the ones who have built considerable fan-bases on the back of releasing records on major labels and touring to support these releases. They have been able to do both these things thanks to the largesse and patience of major labels. The majority of established acts owe their financial well-being, pulling power and ability to keep on trucking to a major label who took a punt on them.

    New business model pimps are not prepared to put in the spadework or heavy lifting to build an audience from the ground up because it costs too much, takes too long and the audience remains hugely cynical and suspicious about brands, hence why brands go after established acts. They have large chequebooks and that is why established acts tend to respond well to what they have to say. Established acts know that the record label jig is up and they’re looking around for the next big pay-day because band members have college fees to pay or new houses to decorate or plastic surgery to get done.

    This concentration on acts who’ve already grabbed their audience leaves White Hinterland outside the tent. Because the major label jig is up, she is probably not going to be able to count on the financial muscle of a major label to back her art. Sure, she has a label who will put out her record, but Dead Oceans do not have the wherewithall to push and plug and kick the ass off that record and turn her into the new, I don’t know, Feist. Such an approach wouldn’t suit the music, of course, but the label isn’t in that position so lets discard that one. Like every other act, Dienel has to tour and tour and tour to spread the word and make some dough, which is why she’s playing to 18 people in Dublin on a Wednesday night.

    So far, so depressing, right? Well, not really. At the end of the show, Dienel went to the back of the venue and clocked in for her second shift of the day at the merchandise stand. About 9 or 10 people in all bought a CD or record or t-shirt after the show. Each of them had a chat with her and she signed their purchases. Her merch take for the night was probably around €200, not a bad haul for the night (I’m assuming the venue didn’t take a commission).

    But far more valuable than all those euros was the knowledge which Dienel was probably squirreling away as she chatted to the fans. She was learning how those people found out about her music and what they liked about it. She was turning fans into friends and ambassadors. She was sowing the seeds for her next trip to Ireland. She was starting to turn those 18 punters into 100 punters. It’s something she’s going to have to do at every single damn gig she plays until she’s at a stage where she is playing rooms where some nosey fellow from a daily newspaper can’t do a head-count from where he’s standing.

    That’s the future of this business for every act in it who does not yet have an established audience capable of keeping him/her/them in the style to which they think should be accustomed. They’re going to have to do - and are hopefully already doing - what Dienel is doing. It’s about making those connections, doing the informal data-mining after every show to find out what DJ is playing your record or what blogger is typing about you or who is best at spreading the word about you in that town. That’s the media info dope Dienel has to take from every show. It’s also about making sure those fans who’ve trucked out to see you go home happy. It’s not quite peer to peer - though many fans would like to think it is - but it’s certainly a lot more than business to consumer. That’s the business info dope Dienel has to get from every show. On top of all that, she has to keep writing the songs and making those records. Any act who is not prepared to do all that might as well apply for that job in Spar right now.

    • 109 Comments »

    1.
    October 28, 2008
    10:57 am

    Jim - I’ve been playing on the Dublin music scene for over 15 years and would agree with your take on things there. I’d also add that those contacts with fans after a gig and the warm enthusiasm of a small bunch of people is not just the starting point for building a bigger audience but the validation that a musician needs in order the answer the ever-present question ‘am i just kidding myself?’.

    Comment by Mumblin' Deaf Ro
    2.
    October 28, 2008
    11:08 am

    MDR - I hear you on the validation part of the equation - I suppose what I am trying to get across is that sometimes what is seen as a half-empty glass is also half-full. There may have been only 18 payers at the gig but that is a great starting point for building an audience (especially as 50 percent of that audience bought some merch afterwards).

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    3.
    October 28, 2008
    11:11 am

    Great article Jim. But you forgot to point out one part when you said “It’s something she’s going to have to do at every single damn gig she plays until she’s at a stage where she is playing rooms where some nosey fellow from a daily newspaper can’t do a head-count from where he’s standing.”

    Part of the business model could also mean getting noticed by “some nosey fellow from a daily newspaper” who goes on to talk about her, and probably guarantees her those 100 punters at the next show, with or without her own legwork.

    Comment by Ronan
    4.
    October 28, 2008
    11:17 am

    Ronan - I think you’re placing far too much importance on the fella from the daily newspaper! I really think word of mouth recommendations from those 18 punters is far, far more valuable than what ANY hack will write or DJ will say or blogger will enthuse about the show/album. I know, I’m talking myself out of a job here, aren’t I?

    But I trust word of mouth more than anything else. If someone whose opinion I trust tells me about a show or band or album, I’ll listen. Sure, many times, that person might have a radio show or write for a paper or write a blog, but it could also be someone who I know really knows their music and has tipped me off to stuff before which turned out to be worth the effort. Word of mouth is where a buzz has to start - everything follows from that point.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    5.
    October 28, 2008
    11:23 am

    Spot on article me says. Godd stuff

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    6.
    October 28, 2008
    11:26 am

    There were about 10 people max. at the Our Brother The Native gig in Crawdaddy a few Sunday’s ago. They were great , the band chatted with a few of us after and me and my buddy bought t-shirts ( we already had the album after reading your review in the times).

    But still , 10 people was really fucking sparse. At 14 bucks a ticket.

    Comment by Q
    7.
    October 28, 2008
    11:32 am

    Leigh - thanks

    Q - Just goes to prove that even great reviews will not get people out the door to a gig. I think that was CD of the Week too. But I’m more interested to know if OBTN came back to town, would you go again? And would you tell more people about the show and try to bring them down to the gig? It’s like Jamie Oliver’s Pass It On

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    8.
    October 28, 2008
    11:43 am

    i’ve been to see ugly duckling a few times and they sell their merchandise before and after the gig. andy from the band signs all the merchandise “still selling those t shirts ANDY” they also gave out all their beer to the crowd when they played crawdaddy.

    Comment by petee
    9.
    October 28, 2008
    11:44 am

    I’d like to add that the people who bought stuff afterwards were die-hards. They all got their merch signed and even a couple got into pictures with her.
    9 people bought merch but the other 9 still came up to talk to her, so she spoke to every paying fan in that room.

    Great gig too by the way.

    Comment by Pedro
    10.
    October 28, 2008
    11:45 am

    Couldn’t agree more with your piece but gigs like that have been happening for the last year or so before the recession even kicked in. It’s definitely something I’ve been noticing for awhile now and i put it down to the promoters taking chances. Take POD for example, they’ve consistently been booking really good but somewhat unknown bands to play in Crawdaddy. They book bands to play before their album comes out, or just a couple of days afterwards and in a lot of cases very few people will have had the chance to hear them. So 20 - 50 people show up, as in the case of Le Loop or White Hinterland but the next time they play (as you say above) that turns into a 100 strong audience. It’s the promoters who have taken the risk and lost money on that first gig in a lot of cases but they’ve also secured their right to book the band the next time and make their money back and eventually put them on in a much larger venue. There’s a lot of very astute booking moves going on and a lot of it is banking on what you’ve spoke about above.

    Comment by Bren
    11.
    October 28, 2008
    11:53 am

    petee - which explains why Ugly Duckling will keep on getting booked and keep pulling crowds

    pedro - and those 18 people will probably talk to at least half-a-dozen or more to convert them into fans for the next gig

    bren - I’m not focusing on the view from the promoter’s desk for this one - we’ll come back to them soon enough. They take risks and they win some and they lose some. Theyre playing a long-term game. But what I am getting at here is that the act has to be just as astute with what they want from a gig. It can’t be just about the fee - it has to be about the merch take, the data mining, all those details too. That data will still stand to the act if the promoter decides not to book the act the next time around.

    I suppose what I’m getting at is that the act must be as ruthless as the promoter and use them in the same way as they’re using the band. Use them to do the legwork, use their venue to sell the merch, use the audience to get the info for the next time around.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    12.
    October 28, 2008
    12:00 pm

    I’ve been in loads of bands that never got off the starting block and that piece is easily be the best advice I’ve ever read. It’s the reason why so many bands just fall apart - they’re not prepared to put in that work and still think some major label A&R scumbag will come along with the solution. That aint going to happen.

    Great piece Mr Carroll - thank you.

    Comment by Sammy
    13.
    October 28, 2008
    12:28 pm

    Best gigs I’ve ever been at are the small ones. It feels like you’re part of the music.

    Jason Isbell at Whelan’s this year. Probably only about 60 people (100 max) there, but it was amazing.

    The only thing is that i hope the low attendance doesn’t stop these American artists from returning to our shores. e.g. The Gaslight Anthem have a few UK dates, but no Irish ones.

    Comment by Ronan
    14.
    October 28, 2008
    12:40 pm

    Yeah, a good assessment Jim.

    But Sammy, remember that not everyone is a schmoozer. Just because a person has this inbuilt function that allows them to perform onstage in front of a crowd for an hour, doesn’t mean they can just as easily step off the stage, interact with people, sweetalk and sell themselves. Its a whole other criteria and fair play to the likes of people like Deneil who can do it — but its not a given.

    Comment by Peter81
    15.
    October 28, 2008
    12:42 pm

    I think a year or so ago, people went along to bands they hardly knew, just for something to do. Not sure that’s the case anymore. There’s no way promoters will continue to take the hit on bands not filling venues. Unfortunately, smaller bands will not be booked!
    I’m off to Port O’Brien tonight, and expect a similar sized crowd. We shall see….

    Comment by Morgan Quinn
    16.
    October 28, 2008
    12:48 pm

    Sammy - I think there are many ways to skin the cat but any act hoping for those A&Rs to turn up is really fooling themself

    Ronan - the problem with small audiences is that if the act may then find the promoter not so willing to book them second time around, unless there has been some huge track or buzz elsewhere. Promoters are not great for listening to or spotting word of mouth buzzes

    Peter81 - I dont know about that - while it’s not a given that an act giving it socks onstage will be a people person offstage, I think theyre going to have to develop those skills. After all, as MDR pointed out above, it is the kind of validation which encourages the act to keep writing and singing and performing. Acts who are not able to sweettalk and sell themselves to people who’ve already gone to the trouble of going to one of their shows and paying good cash for their tickets may well find the going even tougher in the future

    Morgan - I would be v interested to see the turnout for Port O’Brien. There has been a lot of radio play for “Woke Up Today” and they already played here in May.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    17.
    October 28, 2008
    1:30 pm

    I was one of the paying punters at the gig. I had only heard of them about 3 weeks beforehand from the Aquarium Drunkard site - he’s a DJ in LA who seems to like the same music as me, so when he writes about someone I don’t know, I check it out…

    http://www.aquariumdrunkard.com/2008/09/25/white-hinterland-francais-luniculaire

    I (legally !) downloaded her solo album & new band album from www.emusic.com and was amazed to see they were playing here so soon after. I bought the French EP at the gig and got the ol’ signature.

    I was bemused by the small attendance, if only out of embarrassment for the band to come over from America to play to such a small crowd.

    Given that Crawdaddy & Whelans have a lot of gigs below 20 Euro, I’m appalled that they are the ones to suffer in favour of the big / expensive gigs. Personally I’ve had enough of paying over 50 Euro for a gig and am hoping to avoid those from now on (unless it’s one of my all-time faves).

    Comment by BlueKoyote
    18.
    October 28, 2008
    1:40 pm

    80 tickets sold for port o brien.add freebies and walkups and should be a decent crowd

    Comment by willie
    19.
    October 28, 2008
    1:49 pm

    Good piece Jim- it has got to be a tough road for new artists and while there have been plenty quiet ones recently the one that would highlight this sort of model for me is The Bowerbirds. In their tour of Europe they were at a different city every night with hardly a free day in-between. They were selling their merch straight from the suitcase and I nearly bought another copy of their cd just so they were making a profit.

    The real downside for them was that they were to support Calexico on their return to the States which certainly would have raised their profile- they had to pull out from it though due to exhaustion.

    So a trying time for artists but I am glad that most are making the effort to come to Ireland- hopefully a bigger crowd for Port O’Brien tonight.

    Comment by Tim
    20.
    October 28, 2008
    2:59 pm

    I think you’re placing far too much importance on the fella from the daily newspaper! I really think word of mouth recommendations from those 18 punters is far, far more valuable than what ANY hack will write or DJ will say or blogger will enthuse about the show/album.

    But I trust word of mouth more than anything else. If someone whose opinion I trust tells me about a show or band or album, I’ll listen. Sure, many times, that person might … write a blog,

    Yeah but that person has the possibility once they’ve built up an audience to reach more people than those who just chat about music at a bar or as they wait for a band to come on at a gig. That being said yourself and Nialler are probably the only Irish bloggers that have built up the sort of credibility with a sizable audience to get lots of people to check out new things just becasue they mention them (personally I’ll usually take a punt on whatever goes up on the torturegarden too).

    I know you hated them at SXSW but I was in a crowd of less than 20 to see Evangelicals earlier in the year (and I suspect the majority got freebees, I paid in) but they gave it loads that night and did their best to win friends in the crowd and I did think at the time that next time they played here most of the crowd would be back and they’d be dragging a few mates along with them too.

    I know you don’t want this to be about the promotors but POD have been taking these risks with low turn out gigs but they do own the venue so they get the bar reciepts as well. I know that’s probably not enough for them to be able to turn a profit on an 18 person gig but for 70 or so maybe it does.

    Comment by Ian
    21.
    October 28, 2008
    3:13 pm

    Ian - Don’t tell me you’re still on that bus!

    http://thrillpier.blogspot.com/2008/10/i-am-internetting-from-bus.html

    Anyway… I know you’re going on about how bloggers and writers influence people but I really put more store by word of mouth than reviews or previews.

    Of course, there are some writers and bloggers that I always have time for and I will check out what they’re writing about, but by and large, like most people I would think, I tend to make up my own mind about stuff based often on word of mouth from a number of friends whose opinion I trust and who have proven themselves to be on the money in the past.

    Acts should really take note of this because word of mouth works. Problem is that it’s not an exact science - wonder what ever happened to Rick Rubin’s plan to set up a word of mouth dept at Sony? - and you can’t come up with a formula for it. And you also can’t say “the success of X is all down to word of mouth”. Yet as Port O’Brien will probably show tonight - second gig in 6 months and all of that - and as Evangelicals will show when they return, it does work. People recommending stuff to other people is the way to go. I’m sure you went to NYC with a bundle of recommendations of bands and places to check out, based on lists and tips from mates and the like.

    As for bar receipts - yeah, that’s a good point. While there wasn’t a lot of drinking going on at the white hinterland gig, even a tenner per head would have brought in €180-€200 at the bar

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    22.
    October 28, 2008
    3:14 pm

    without reading through all the comments, i’ll just mention that i agree with what you are saying jim but i’m not sure why you are saying it, other than as an observation…

    …this is no different to the way the music industry has been since year zero… i have been to countless gigs over the last 20 years with less punters than that… nothing has changed…

    Comment by Ally
    23.
    October 28, 2008
    3:24 pm

    Ally - With respect, you need to read the piece again.

    this is no different to the way the music industry has been since year zero

    Totally untrue. Again, read the piece - what I am talking about is what an act like White Hinterland has to do in the future to build an audience and career for herself. In the past, acts had record labels who could and would promote and support them - this is no longer the case.

    i have been to countless gigs over the last 20 years with less punters than that

    So have I but have the acts continued to play and build an audience? Are the acts still going today? Did the acts get off their arse and actually try to build an audience?

    What I’m pointing out here is that the gameplan has played - there is no fairy godmother going to roll in with a major label contract or easy way out. All those new business models do not apply to acts without an established audience. Acts who want to stay in the game have to do the sweet-talking and hard selling to those dozen or two dozen or three dozen punters who turn up at their gigs

    nothing has changed

    Really?

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    24.
    October 28, 2008
    3:29 pm

    “in the past, acts had record labels that could and would promote them”

    what past are you living in? Ro has just told you he’s been doing this for 15 years… i really don’t see how the business models have changed significantly… there have always been below the radar acts that have had to work hard for themselves…

    p.s. i might be missing your point here through laziness but your last post didn’t make it any clearer

    Comment by Ally
    25.
    October 28, 2008
    3:36 pm

    I think you might be underestimating the power of blogging, Jim.
    I think good blogs and forums have a huge hand in creating a bit of a stir about bands, or introducing people to new/old bands they’re not familiar with.
    It’s not just word of mouth - these days it really is the internet that people turn to to find out about music. After all, you have unbridled access to articles, reviews, tracks, downloads etc within seconds. How many people here will google a band after hearing their name mentioned on blog/forum? I would say nearly everybody.
    And many will then go on to download an album, then if they like that they’ll go on to see a gig when/if they play here.
    Of course, when a band has good merch and when a band takes time out after gigs to chat to fans etc, that does create good feedback for them.
    But then, I’d wager most bands have a fair idea of how important that is already. And those that don’t are either too big to care or will find themselves with disgruntled fans before long.

    Comment by sweetoblivion
    26.
    October 28, 2008
    3:40 pm

    Ally - Again, read the comment properly instead of scanning over it.

    “in the past, acts had record labels that could and would promote them”

    what past are you living in? Ro has just told you he’s been doing this for 15 years…

    And what has that to do with anything? I’m extremely reluctant to speak for MDR like you have just done, but maybe he has made a decision not to go with a label. This, I have to stress, is just an opinion - I dont know MDR or his circumstances or his dealings with labels and I really dont think it is fair for anyone else to assume anything about his business dealings.

    i really don’t see how the business models have changed significantly…

    Thay have changed HUGELY. Seriously Ally, you don’t really mean to tell me that you believe that? Anyone with even a passing interest in music knows that the business end has changed beyond belief in the last 5 to 10 years

    there have always been below the radar acts that have had to work hard for themselves…

    And again I ask the question I posed at no 23 above which you didn’t answer - have the acts continued to play and build an audience? Are the acts still going today? Did the acts get off their arse and actually try to build an audience?

    p.s. i might be missing your point here through laziness but your last post didn’t make it any clearer

    What do you mean “didnt make it any clearer”? I answered all your points but I note that you didn’t bother to answer mine.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    27.
    October 28, 2008
    3:43 pm

    “i really don’t see how the business models have changed significantly”

    You’re obviously not in a band or know much about music, Ally. Everything about this business has changed enormously in the last couple of years.

    Comment by Vince
    28.
    October 28, 2008
    3:46 pm

    Vince - From what I can see, ‘Ally’s’ talking about business models, not the music business. There’s no need to suggest she doesn’t know anything about music…

    Comment by sweetoblivion
    29.
    October 28, 2008
    3:46 pm

    my laziness jim, my laziness… i only have time (or patience) to scan…

    all i’m saying is that i’ve never much been arsed with whether a band or artist has got a label or not… or even whether they get up and promote their own music… some of my favourite performers regularly play to 20 or 30 punters and then go back to their day job… in fact, those that haven’t got carried away with making a “career” out of it tend to be the ones who are most certainly still going and writing and releasing wonderful music… perhaps white hinterland will feel the same way… you seem to be able to talk for her, if not mumblin’ deaf ro…

    Comment by Ally
    30.
    October 28, 2008
    3:46 pm

    sweetoblivion - I’m not underestimating the power of blogging - or journalism or radio or any other form of exposure - but pointing out that word of mouth is also part of the formula. For all the mentions in blogs and mags, it is the word of mouth recommendation from a friend to another friend which will often have the greatest impact.

    But no, for the most part, it’s not one thing or another - it’s a combination of EVERYTHING.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    31.
    October 28, 2008
    3:51 pm

    you seem to be able to talk for her, if not mumblin’ deaf ro…

    Where exactly have I spoken for her above? I’ve taken her show as an example and used it to point out how a band at a similar stage will have to operate in the future.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    32.
    October 28, 2008
    3:51 pm

    True, everything together has an impact - although wouldn’t word of mouth have meant more back in the day before the internet? When people had to depend on weekly/monthly music publications or tapes their friends made, when they couldn’t access any band at any given time?

    Alternatively, you could argue that the internet is so saturated with music and opinions on music that word of mouth becomes important because you can trust your source!

    Comment by sweetoblivion
    33.
    October 28, 2008
    3:56 pm

    no you haven’t, jim… you spent a whole two paragraphs telling me how she will build her career from that gig in dublin and turn it in to 100 punters next time round…

    anyway, i didn’t mean to go down this line… i just don’t see the difference between now and 20 years ago, regardless of the collapse of the “major”… some musicians have always had to fight for themselves…

    Comment by Ally
    34.
    October 28, 2008
    4:02 pm

    I hear what Ally is saying. Initially it took me about an hour to get what Jim’s point was. That’s not meant as a critique of the article - perhaps it’s a reflection of how we can all see the half empty/full in things.

    Yes schmoozing has been around since the Chieftains were young men but I think the nugget (that Jim was getting at) is that the information gained at these times is used in a meaningful fashion.

    That might be stating the bleedin obvious but how often do music acts simply use the post-show time as an excuse to rub their egos, drink, grab a groupie or generally act the monkey.

    On the flip side of this whole discussion, I think we need more Jamie Oliver style initiatives’ for music. Imagine who quickly the music scene would change if we adopted a ‘Pass It On’ attitude.

    Eg. Getting two friends to listen to an album a week on the condition that if they like it, that they pass it on to two friends, and so forth.

    Imagine the impact over time of bringing diversity to your circle and those amongst it. Consider what it might be like hearing Herbie Hancock, Fleet Foxes, Husker Du, Gram Parsons, even Port O Brien, whatever for the very first time.

    It might all sound very ‘music club’ recommendations being forced on the unsuspecting listener but how can any of us know unless we try?

    We’d be a much more musically healthy bunch in no time and the music acts would be a whole lot better off…well unless people stopped going to the shows or buying the product in some shape or form. Hee hee.

    Comment by James D
    35.
    October 28, 2008
    4:03 pm

    Alternatively, you could argue that the internet is so saturated with music and opinions on music that word of mouth becomes important because you can trust your source!

    Too true. But for all that saturation, you find the same acts getting the bulk of the coverage.

    How often will you read about the same new releases and next big things and news stories in nearly every single blog? Yes, there are a few exceptions, but I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ll find the same acts, MP3s and reviews on the majority of blogs.

    For all the talk about how blogs are new new thing, the vast majority of music blogs are as conservative and predictable as the music press of old.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    36.
    October 28, 2008
    4:06 pm

    I’m in DC now, off the bus thankfully.

    I didn’t see any bands in New York amazingly but since I’ve been down here I’ve caught Mirah (who reminded me just how much I like “C’mon Miracle” from a few years back) Deerhoof (who were great and had a really good, if somewhat similar band called Experimental Dental School opening) and Billy Bragg (oversimplified between song polemics that drew howls of approval from the hungry for change audience, but hey, he wrote “a new England” so he can do hatever he wants).

    Oh yeah, monuments and all that too.

    Comment by Ian
    37.
    October 28, 2008
    4:10 pm

    Ally -

    you spent a whole two paragraphs telling me how she will build her career from that gig in dublin and turn it in to 100 punters next time round…

    I dont see how that could be seen as speaking for someone. I dont manage the act or have any interest in her - as I said above, I was using the show as an example, not speaking for anyone.

    i just don’t see the difference between now and 20 years ago, regardless of the collapse of the “major”… some musicians have always had to fight for themselves…

    And for the third time, I ask you - have the acts continued to play and build an audience? Are the acts still going today? Did the acts get off their arse and actually try to build an audience?

    No-one is handing anyone anything on a plate. You say “some musicians have always had to fight for themselves” - but ALL musicians have had to fight for themselves at some stage. Yes, even U2. Even Coldplay. Even, I dont know, The Corrs. As quickly becomes apparent, it is the acts who realise that they have to put in the hard work who will still be around making music - and maybe making a living from music - 20 years from now.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    38.
    October 28, 2008
    4:15 pm

    James D - thankfully the ‘pass it on’ idea is there already, more or less. At my gigs, people who like my music tend to drag along a couple of other people. It’s a bit like a pyramid scheme.

    Things change quite quickly. When i released my first album in 2003, there were no blogs on the Dublin scene, no myspace, no free downloads, no itunes. That had all changed by the time I put out another album in 2007.

    If Road Records goes out of business between now and the time I do another album (2011) the whole thing will change again (for the worse).

    Comment by Mumblin' Deaf Ro
    39.
    October 28, 2008
    4:18 pm

    “For all the talk about how blogs are new new thing, the vast majority of music blogs are as conservative and predictable as the music press of old.”

    Sure, there are plenty of blogs out there that cover the same old ground, but because there are millions of blogs, unlike the handful of music mags, if you do a bit of digging you’ll always uncover some gems.

    I’m no expert on blogs at all, unlike some people who contribute here, and I update my own blog sporadically, but I like dipping in and out of other blogs from around the world and finding new things on them.

    Of course, when it comes to new releases etc, you’ll generally find that most music blogs cover the same ground, because they get the promos at the same time…!
    But then there are blogs like Nialler9’s where every day you’ll find something different to the norm. The best-read blogs might be the best-read because they cover more ‘mainstream’ alternative bands and so get more traffic - but on smaller blogs you’ll always find something or someone you haven’t heard before.

    Also I would argue that unlike the NME et all (back in the 80s, when they were actually important to music lovers), which thought (knew?) that their opinion meant a huge amount to readers (for good or bad reasons), bloggers don’t always see themselves as having the ultimate say on bands.

    Comment by sweetoblivion
    40.
    October 28, 2008
    4:50 pm

    I see exactly what Ally is saying. Nobody could argue that there have not been significant changes in the music industry but using a poorly attended show and the attempts by an artist to engage with fans at a grass roots level to demonstrate this change makes no sense. Bands have been coming to Dublin for 30 years with no label support and to play poorly attended shows and using word of mouth methods to promote themselves. Ask Umack or Hope or any other indepedent promoter active in the 90s if this has always been the case. Just because major labels have lost their backbone in the face of dwindling profits and a laughable lack of foresight doesnt mean that the rest of the musical world as we know it has changed in tandem. Let’s keep a little perspective here.

    Comment by Meep
    41.
    October 28, 2008
    4:56 pm

    Sorry my last comments were a little out of context with the subsequent hot potato comments that were added after I started writing it.

    I think ye might be all talking around the same thing.

    What Ally appears to be talking about is that there are acts who are happy to keep it small and have no ambitions to get their music out to a bigger audience. That’s their choice and is fair enough.

    What Jim is talking about is what does the new bands do that are trying to make a go of it in the shadow of a music industry infrastructure that has being irreparably compromised.

    This is where the confusion lies me thinks. Jim’s point is that bands/singers can’t expect there will be the mechanics of a record label or the media to bail them out to ensure the music sells or punters turn up at the show.

    The labels never did this in the first place but it’s worse these days. Bands really do need to make this happen for themselves these days. By whatever means.

    Another point that I think Jim was making is that there is no longer that safety net for established acts either. The old album/tour method just simply doesn’t cut it anymore and this would be confirmed by even the more forward thinking cottage industries like Ani Difranco or Marillion who have tried various methods to getting the music out there.

    Again this is all bleedin obvious stuff but sometimes it needs to be stated.

    On the matter of passing it on, has any act ever floated the idea of selling two copies of an album for the price of one?

    I was just thinking that it might be a nice idea that a punter can get one album for themselves but also one to give to a friend. I’ve always found myself a little more persuaded to listen to an original copy versus a copied cd (not that anyone does that…eh ahem).

    Comment by James D
    42.
    October 28, 2008
    5:09 pm

    Jim - I see where you are coming from, though I’m sure some people would argue that this “struggle” which bands face has always been the case. Yes, some bands always chose to make do with less and that was fine - they were the acts who played for smaller promoters and who were not in it for a career. They used word of mouth to spread the word about what they were doing and knew they would never play to anything but a small, select audience.

    But I think the point is that word of mouth now applies to ALL bands. Changes in how the music business operates means there is now a new emphasis on live shows and, as a result, there is a a much greater need for acts to pull in that live audience. There is now no huge revenue for any band from recorded music - bar the ones with an established audience - so acts have to build up their live audience by all means necessary. And that includes the word of mouth thing, which was how indie acts operated in the past.

    Good post, as the reaction to it has shown.

    Comment by Pete
    43.
    October 28, 2008
    5:26 pm

    Some very funny comments here. Ally and Meep are like Statler & Waldorf. They’ve seen it all before and in their day, every band played to 20 people, it was always raining and you just about had enough change from a pint of porter and a pound for dripping to buy the Evening Herald on the way home. Old people like them are so funny.

    Comment by Vinnie
    44.
    October 28, 2008
    5:37 pm

    @#43 Does referencing reality to make a point make me a sentimental idiot? Im neither old nor nostalgic but if people are going to discuss change then discuss actual change and not red herrings. The White Hinterland gig represents an artist with little or no profile in this country competing against two more established acts on the same night for an audience and not a fundamental shift in paradigm for touring artists.

    Comment by Meep
    45.
    October 28, 2008
    5:44 pm

    Meep - sorry to have rocked your zimmerframe there, old bean

    “if people are going to discuss change then discuss actual change and not red herrings.”

    This is about Barack Obama again, right?

    Comment by Vinnie
    46.
    October 28, 2008
    5:50 pm

    The White Hinterland gig represents an artist with little or no profile in this country competing against two more established acts on the same night for an audience and not a fundamental shift in paradigm for touring artists

    Meep - I would be amazed if the act or the audience thought of it in those terms. I doubt anyone at the show saw it as an either/or situation - they were there to see WH because they wanted to check her out not because they weighed up the options vis-a-vis Pivor or Sly & Robbie.

    The whole point of this post - which a lot of people are unsurprisingly missing - is how acts “with little or no profile”, to quote yourself, are going to build audiences and sustain careers in the future. All positive suggestions welcome.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    47.
    October 28, 2008
    5:59 pm

    “Meep - sorry to have rocked your zimmerframe there, old bean”

    “This is about Barack Obama again, right?”

    Does the RTE sitcom department know that you’re posting on blogs when you should be writing?

    Comment by Meep
    48.
    October 28, 2008
    6:06 pm

    “The whole point of this post - which a lot of people are unsurprisingly missing - is how acts “with little or no profile”, to quote yourself, are going to build audiences and sustain careers in the future”

    Im asking how is the solution now any different from how it has always been? You get a shit hot live set together and you tour the arse of it and make sure that whoever sees you is blown away, buys a record and a tee shirt and brings more people to see you next time you play. If there is a change it’s that there may be less room for mediocrity.

    Comment by Meep
    49.
    October 28, 2008
    6:08 pm

    Hey Jim,
    You’ll be happy to know that I ‘got it’ first time round - do i I get a gold star?
    ;)

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    50.
    October 28, 2008
    6:13 pm

    Im asking how is the solution now any different from how it has always been?

    Meep - That’s a very good question. And I think you even provided at least 80% of the answer yourself too. The solution is:

    You get a shit hot live set together and you tour the arse of it and make sure that whoever sees you is blown away, buys a record and a tee shirt and brings more people to see you next time you play

    As to why it is different now than it has always been - the change is that now ALL bands without an established audience have to do this. Add in some schmoozing with the fans, looking after that fanbase and all of that and you have the way ALL bands now have to operate. Years ago, many acts used to operate like this but just as many bands would rely on their label to do this spadework for them. The change in record label economics means ALL bands must do exactly what you described above in order to build an audience.

    Just to be clear as well, I used WH as an example but I could have just as easily used Pivot or Port O’Brien or Tilly & The Wall or any other act visiting Dublin this month to illustrate this post.

    Leigh - Gold star and a chocolate medal too. And a 3 out of 5 review for your next record.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    51.
    October 28, 2008
    6:20 pm

    I do see what you’re getting at but you’re talking about a band on Dead Oceans - a modest independent label and modest operations such as DO have never had had the reach nor the means to do groundwork on behalf of their bands in regions as far flung as Ireland. The only way you could apply what you’re saying to represent a fundamental change is if WH would have had major label support had the industry not begun to crumble at the top end and that is no more than a hypothesis.

    Comment by Meep
    52.
    October 28, 2008
    6:34 pm

    Meep - Yes, of course, this is just a hypothesis, I don’t think anyone (least of all me) thinks it is any more than that at this point. But it is a method which we will see more and more acts using, especially those acts who would have previously relied on the label machine to do all their promotion for them.

    Also, and I can be corrected here if needs be, I would say that the deals provided by a label like Dead Oceans are not exactly hugely attractive financially for the acts. I’m sure they can get the record into shops worldwide via P&D partners and provide some promotional/marketing muscle, but I dont think the act could rely on tour support or anything like that.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    53.
    October 28, 2008
    9:06 pm

    Leigh - Gold star and a chocolate medal too. And a 3 out of 5 review for your next record.

    i was aiming for 1 out of 5 - they’re the only reviews i read anymore
    :)

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    54.
    October 29, 2008
    1:20 am

    At the Green Gathering this summer I remember there being three of us in the tent for Grand Pocket Orchestra - myself, another enthusiastic fan and a toddler. Granted there were others sitting outside the small, open tent looking in (hopefully the toddler’s parents). Later that night, I saw the GPO crew in the crowd and we got to chatting, and they told me about their upcoming gigs and EP release. Talking to the band made my ‘relationship’ with them about more just downloading their stuff and going to see them live - and it certainly made me more likely to buy their CDs and merchandise.

    What excites me is how the potential downfall of current business models has the potential to really democratise music. Gene Simmons complains that falling record company revenues mean it’s less likely the next great band will be discovered and promoted, and that’s true. But do we need record companies to discover and promote bands anymore? If a truly special act put their songs online, surely it would only be a matter of time before word got out?

    The collapse of major record companies would remove the middleman, and allow for more direct contact between artists and fans, via the internet of course. It could potentially put musical artists on a more level footing, ending the dominance of acts with the most financial backing.

    Okay, I have more to write but my eyes are spontaneously closing…time for bed.

    Comment by Lenny
    55.
    October 29, 2008
    1:50 am

    That was like Groundhog Thread. But without the happy ending

    Comment by Kieran
    56.
    October 29, 2008
    9:21 am

    Port O’B had about a 150 at it last night, so hopefully those poor down trodden promoters made their money back on the night! Not sure if they stayed after to ‘meet and greet’, but they seemed nice people, none the less….

    Comment by Morgan Quinn
    57.
    October 29, 2008
    11:08 am

    @56- The lead from Port O’Brien, Van, stayed for the meet and greet and damn chatty he is…he was still trying to find somebody that could get him some autographed merch from Boyzone…if his voice ever goes he could do well in standup!

    Comment by Tim
    58.
    October 29, 2008
    11:26 am

    i’m not sure if one whole post of mine got “edited” out or whether i just had trouble submitting it…

    …what i do know is that jim edited one of his posts in hindsight without referencing the fact… only a minor misunderstanding but it did make a mockery of my following statement…

    as for this debate, summary is that i’m where meep is at…

    Comment by Ally
    59.
    October 29, 2008
    11:33 am

    Ally - All comments submittd by you are above. Was there another one? Will check the spam filter and see if it got caught there.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    60.
    October 29, 2008
    11:39 am

    it might have just got caught at my end jim… don’t worry about it anyway… it has been superceded in many respects…

    Comment by Ally
    61.
    October 29, 2008
    12:25 pm

    Ironically I went to Port O’Brien last night after reading about the gig in this blog about the value of word of mouth ;)

    It was a good show. Nice band and ‘I Woke Up Today’ really is a brilliant song.

    Comment by Peter81
    62.
    October 29, 2008
    1:20 pm

    Fantastic article Jim - loads of food for thought in it.

    Obviously, as you point out above, this is only a hypothesis, but surely the day when even acts signed to major labels (if major labels keep signing new acts) will realise that they have to engage in this way with their fans to survive or thrive cannot be far away.

    Comment by John
    63.
    October 29, 2008
    2:18 pm

    After the Shellac gig last night, Steve and the boys announced that as soon as they had their gear packed up they would be hanging around to sell T-Shirts and chat. There was even great banter during the set when they opened up to questions from the floor while they re-tuned.

    Personal interaction between bands and fans has been going on for donkeys. The major label system was far from immune to ignoring quality in favour for the more easily marketable.

    Comment by Void
    64.
    October 29, 2008
    2:35 pm

    I’d disagree that there are no new business models that cater to the lower-rungs of the musical ladder - there are a bunch of great companies putting new tools to use, getting their hands dirty, all in the name of building an audience for bands - Richter Collective, Bruised Fruit Promotions, Fat Northerner Records - all pushing boundaries.

    I do think WH’s approach has to be the norm - Tom McShane (who coincidentally opened for WH on her Belfast date) headed out to the west coast of the US for 7 dates last year, playing to smattering audiences between 5-30 with local support, sold a bunch of music and merch and will be heading back early next year.

    When chatting to Frank Turner (a reasonably successful solo artist) we surmised that a band should be playing 170-200 shows a year, and if not, it’s time to give it up. Sounds about right to stave off the Spar jobs.

    Comment by Nick
    65.
    October 29, 2008
    3:36 pm

    Thing is though all artists might have to have a business head nowadays, thats fair enough, and really obvious but this model seems to require all struggling artists to be nice, friendly people with good social skills to basically act as their own salesmen.

    Is there no future for the grumpy, outcast aloof, oddballs who have historically always made the best music? Eno? Curtis? Van?

    Comment by Haman
    66.
    October 29, 2008
    3:46 pm

    Haman - I dont think what I’m talking about here is necessarily an “one size fits all approach”. I would hate to see what Van Morrison would do if his future earnings revolved around him standing around after a gig making nice with the audience.

    But it’s clear that changes in how the business operates - mainly the fact that revenue from record sales is falling, record labels are not investing huge money in acts like before and that live gigs are where bands will make their cash and build their audiences - will mean new aproaches for the acts. What I’ve outlined above is just an example using the WH gig from last week. I don’t for a moment think ALL acts are suddenly going to get busy with the schmoozing after a show - some will, some won’t - or even if it work for the acts, Rather, Im pointing out that such micro promotion will probably become the norm for many, many acts.

    As for those “grumpy, outcast aloof, oddballs” - they’d better enjoy touring or be prepared to sell their tunes to ads and TV shows like The OC or Grey’s Anatomy if they want to make a living.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    67.
    October 29, 2008
    4:02 pm

    Hey don’t knock selling toons to TV shows. We’ve had some hip/cool/down with the kids acts have helped pay the bills by that route.

    Everyone from Fleet Foxes, Band Of Horses to The Flaming Lips have taken a few rubles from the US greedheads over the last few months.

    Even The The in all their political correctness have allowed their music to be used (and raised their profile!!!) in an american commercial.

    Ain’t nothing wrong with it me thinks….

    Comment by James D
    68.
    October 29, 2008
    4:05 pm

    I accept the point though it seems, in this model, ineveitable, that the future of music will belong entirely to people who are well presented, smile, make nice and have plenty of saleable merchandise; with music written to fill a niche for the latest medical drama/ad campaign. Is the idea of artists as a being of integrity struggling to express themselves and finding a resonance in others one that is completely and utterly dead? Doesn’t seem a very nice future in that case. Though Al Green has a new record out.

    We have already begun to see an utter saturation of airways with bland, sustainable artists peddling soundtracks in place of songs, atmostphere instead of emotion. I don’t think it’s going to be long before people become utterly bored with this perpetually narrowing safe music offered ubiquitously. Even the DIY punk touring scene has become formulaic. It’s a future of artisans and craftsmen, not artists.

    Innovation always needs sponsors and people with money to let them exist. Sooner or later someone is going to start a label with that in mind and things will swing back the other way. Otherwise what sort of music will be made in the next 10 years, given that the last 10 are largely irrelevant (Oasis and Prodigy at Slane anyone?)

    Comment by Haman
    69.
    October 29, 2008
    4:15 pm

    James D - Nope, I wasnt knocking that business model at all, just pointing out that it is one bands should get comfortable with (although the actual cash take from this is by no means as lucrative as some people might think)

    Haman - Thing is, Al Green already has an established audience - he was able to do two shows here in Dublin at the weekend and, I would imagine, got paid handsomely for his troubles

    Is the idea of artists as a being of integrity struggling to express themselves and finding a resonance in others one that is completely and utterly dead?

    Absolutely not. Those artists have always been around - and they will always be with us. If I was to be flippant, some of them are probably even reading OTR while they toil away at a day-job that they deplore but they know that the only way they’re going to make a living.

    Innovation always needs sponsors and people with money to let them exist. Sooner or later someone is going to start a label with that in mind and things will swing back the other way.

    Now, you’re onto something. Labels have always provided patronage, albeit patronage in return for rights. What happens when the labels disapper? That’s right, that commecial benevolence also goes. Some will argue that is no bad thing but I feel nonetheless that we will see a resurgence of middlemen keen to broker the transaction between artist and consumer in return for a cut, as you point out above. These middlemen will be music fans to be sure, but they will also be canny businessmen who know they can make money from this.

    I think this is probably the most exciting time ever for this business. Forget the doom and gloom - there are opportunities galore and an abundance of different ways of approaching the same thing.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    70.
    October 29, 2008
    4:24 pm

    I’m not really pessimistic about it. I’m one of those “struggling in the day job” types.

    I don’t understand the labels reluctance to give their patronage. I can see why the era of the “big deal” is completely dead, but for an artist at the level I have wandered around at for 4 or 5 years small sums can make all the difference. You can record an album and press 500 CDs for less than £2000 nowadays. A label with a model along those lines would really be able to tap into a wealth of talent. Rather than give £50,000 to one band in return for 50% of sweet FA, give £2000 to 25 bands in return for 5-10% of a moderate return. Marketing et al is much more cost-effective in the internet generation too.

    What I don’t understand is, why someone isn’t doing this already.

    Comment by Haman
    71.
    October 29, 2008
    4:43 pm

    I could be wrong here but was the model that Haman proposes not the one that got EMI into so much trouble over the last few years?

    Ok they did have their big investments i.e. Coldplay, Mariah, etc. but they were the champions of new talent for the last 10 years at least.

    I can remember a stage when there seemed to be tons of EMI promos hitting my desk on a weekly basis. Each band being touted as the biggest thing to come out of [insert town name here].

    After a while I felt that they started to cancel each other out. The people signing up these acts really needed a bit of self control….

    Comment by James D
    72.
    October 29, 2008
    5:09 pm

    Haman. I realise you just picked figures from the air but o get business on you for a short second.

    10% of 500 cds retailing at €20 a pop.
    It’s only a €1,000 return at those rates.

    There’s already a lot of not for profit labels out there. John Zorn’s Tzadik label being a huge personal favourite of mine. You’re not likely to hear much of these labels’ output on the radio or popular media though. You need to find these yourself, and still many do.

    I’m not 100% up to speed on the corporate background and funding of these but here’s a few favourites of mine.

    Jagjaguwar - Innovative end of indie
    Ipecac - Mike Patton’s label
    Nuerot - Neurosis’ label
    Ecstatic Peace - Thurston Moores label

    There’s plenty of patrons out there

    Then as for the likes of the Noise scene and the plethora of self released CD-Rs distributed by mail order through a plethora or rag tag distros.

    The music industry is very alive and well in my eyes.

    If anything the old models which guaranteed massive material rewards to the very few, destroyed as much talent as they fostered.
    Massive excess and huge pressures to follow up success ruined many incredible songwriters.

    Comment by Void
    73.
    October 29, 2008
    5:34 pm

    Haman,
    I think you might have a mistaken idea of how much is spent on marketing a b(r)and/release

    normally, the spend on marketing is around 15+ times the cost of making an album on a major (for a relatively well know artist) and unfortunately that’s where the money goes

    labels are now putting themselves in a position where they are spending more and more and more on artists to market them in the digital medium - often resulting in a situation where the more they spend the more they lose because there aren’t enough sales to cover the difference…

    anyway, what was the point of that rant..?

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    74.
    October 29, 2008
    5:38 pm

    Ah but you get that from 19 of the 20 bands - then theres one that shifts 10, 000 copies + Merch + download sales.

    I’ll definitely look up the labels you mention though, apart from Ipecac they are all new to me.

    Thanks for the Tip!

    If there was a defining character of the music we make it would be that it is never going to be suitable to soundtrack an advert for mobile phones where grown men with beards draw rainbows with crayons, but it’s not genre-specific enough to fit anywhere.

    Genre bands can still make a lot of headway - the DIY scene is pretty vibrant for hardcore/noise/punk/metal etc. all round Ireland. The irony is that it is music that would be classed as “indie” that is completely saturated with big label landfill output.

    Ah well sure I could moan on all day, back to the lab with a pen and a pad, as a reat doctor once said.

    Comment by Haman
    75.
    October 29, 2008
    6:12 pm

    Actually I think the point about spending 15x budget promoting someone online kind of coincides nicely with the original article.

    Stick them on a 150 date tour immediately, much less outlay, much more outcome. :)

    Comment by Haman
    76.
    October 29, 2008
    7:20 pm

    i think (?) my point was that there are labels that, despite, are spending more and more on marketing in massively cluttered mediums and less of that is being filtered through to newer acts or sub-labels within a larger organisation

    with that in mind, things like tour support are being canceled out and as a result makes it difficult for artists to tour in the first
    (bare in mind that i simplified and shortened that process as much as i could)

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    77.
    October 29, 2008
    7:51 pm

    Ally said “i’m not sure if one whole post of mine got “edited” out or whether i just had trouble submitting it…”

    I also submitted a post last night that didnt get published. Bit of after the fact editing too. Oh well.

    Comment by Meep
    78.
    October 30, 2008
    8:33 am

    Why though? I mean, there’s only so long you can continue a business model that doesn’t make any money?

    If I start a business from home making small models of Mary McAleese from clay, which cost approx 2 Euro in materials but sell for 15 Euro, and I can sell a few hundred of them without much hassle, then I have a business, right? Where does it all go so horribly horribly wrong?

    Comment by Haman
    79.
    October 30, 2008
    10:27 am

    I also submitted a post last night that didnt get published. Bit of after the fact editing too. Oh well.

    Have checked all last night’s comments - including the spam ones - and it’s not there, Meep. What time did you post it at?

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    80.
    October 30, 2008
    3:26 pm

    Interesting discussion and something similar to that whole 1000 fans debate. A few observations
    Firstly I’m surprised that the artist in question hasn’t responded. I presume that one of the essentials of the new model is to keep a daily eye on stats to see exactly who is talking about you and where.
    Two as someone who has made quite a few purchases (both cd & digital download) online over the years, I’m surprised by the poor interaction offered by a number of artists. Handwritten notes, stickers etc wouldn’t consume much time but all to often they are missing. This is a direct sales channel, the chance to keep a fan for life and often it is poorly handled. In regards to the downloads, can I stress to artists that if I’m buying your work by Digital download, it doesn’t mean that I’m someone who can’t be bothered to read sleeve notes. I want the artwork! If you are not going to supply it could you should clearly state that on the purchase page.

    Thirdly from personal experience, While I don’t run a huge number of gigs, of the small sample that I have run over the last few years one thing that has struck me, is that admission price doesn’t seem to affect considerably the percentage of audience that will purchase cds or merchandise. I would have assumed that if you were seeing the band for free you would have been more likely to buy but I haven’t seen dramatic spikes when the artist is free. It would be interesting to see bands views on this.

    Finally, a warning, this all reminded me of a hip hop gig from a few years ago. The rapper, a ‘backpacker ‘ favourite was adamant before the gig that he wanted a chair and table in front of the stage so he could leap seamlessly into it and start selling at the end of the performance. No real problem there, but when he started interacting/posing for photos etc, he was hassled by a customer determined to buy his hat!. The rapper declined to sell it repeatedly, when suddenly the ‘fan’ whipped the hat off his head and legged it out of the venue onto street outside. Immediately 2 or 3 other fans gave chase. They re-entered a few minutes later heroically brandishing the hat. However the thief obviously racked by drunken guilt also decides to return (don’t ask about the bouncers!). He then loudly tries to get the rapper to accept his apology. The artist still fuming at first slight refuses to and a stand off ensues until security (finally) arrive.

    Comment by shane
    81.
    October 30, 2008
    6:20 pm

    Is this one of those Chris Morris ‘Let’s have a heated debate’ posts. If it is then here’s my tuppence worth.

    In reality very little has changed in the music world. What everyone appears to have overlooked is that the product we should be talking about is the music and not the bands. Bands come and go, the music remains. There’s always been music and musicians but the way they’ve plied their trade has changed fundamentally on lots of occasions since the dawn of time. Some obviously took for granted that the patronage of major record labels would go on forever but in reality the worldwide mass marketing of music is a relatively new phenomenon and one that was destined not to last. It was wall to wall branding, usually nothing more than musical McDonalds or Coca Cola.

    To my untrained eye, and i could well have picked this up incorrectly, it seems that Jim’s post assumes that there is a direct correlation between a bands live show and potential sales of their music. I don’t think this is necessarily the case at all. A good album does not necessarily translate into a good live show and vice versa.

    It may be the case that a band like White Hinterland simply do not have the appeal to be the next big thing. That may just be the case for a lot of musicians. Not everyone can do an Arctic Monkeys on it and translate MySpace success into actual album sales. Perhaps White Hinterland are destined for a career of playing to 20 people in a room. To a record industry mogul that is anathema but to a musician that may be perfectly acceptable.

    In any case, it’s very rare for a band to have universal appeal and be good to boot. Most of the recent bands that have been lauded in the press and on the blogosphere have been distinctly average at best. Once again I should point out that due to the subjective nature of music, that’s actually my opinion and not fact.

    As with most stuff that is marketed to the public 99% of it is usually surplus to requirement. Such is the way with music also.

    Comment by Matt Vinyl
    82.
    October 31, 2008
    11:13 am

    well said matt…

    Comment by Ally
    83.
    October 31, 2008
    11:18 am

    To my untrained eye, and i could well have picked this up incorrectly, it seems that Jim’s post assumes that there is a direct correlation between a bands live show and potential sales of their music. I don’t think this is necessarily the case at all. A good album does not necessarily translate into a good live show and vice versa.

    Matt - Nope, that was not what I was saying or infering or assuming at all. There is a relationship between a band’s album and live show - they are, after all, performing the same songs on both occasions - but it is not what I was getting at here. The point of the post is to do with how an act promotes themselves and how this will change in the future. The album/live show thing was mentioned nowhere above. Sure, a good show may well mean increased record sales but a good show will also result in more people coming around the next time the act is in town.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    84.
    October 31, 2008
    12:02 pm

    jim,

    i’m not 100% sure that last comment is entirely true… there are very few gig-goers who go to hear bands with no prior experience, whether word of mouth says the show was brilliant or not… so few as to be negligible i would guess…

    on top of that, there is so much hyperbole about what constitutes a good show that saying someone is “fucking awesome live” hardly means anything either… 95% of responses i hear about live shows say that to a greater or lesser extent…

    now i guess if it makes you listen to their music on the interweb and then go on the back of that, then it might work… but i don’t live in that world… i either buy records or (as an exception to my rule about most gig-goers above) go to a show completely blind…

    summary - a band playing a great live show has little or no effect on how many people show up the next time they play…

    Comment by Ally
    85.
    October 31, 2008
    12:14 pm

    Ally - I totally disagree with you there. I would reckon that a huge propotion of people who go to a band on a return visit are doing so on the back of word of mouth recommendations about the band’s last show (as well, of course, as checking out the music).

    Look at Port O’Brien this week or, off the top of my head, how the National went from the Cobblestones to Whelan’s to the Olympia/Ambassador. At this stage, as many people claim to have been in the Cobblestones as claim to have been buying stamps in the GPO at Easter 1916 before getting caught up in a spot of bother.

    Of course, there’s also the universal take-up which has a knock-on effect on the Irish market - but I bet you could chart the same steady-steady progress in so many different cities worldwide in the case of The National. Add together all these individual advances and you have what was seen as “over-night” success for the band.

    What’s interesting about this discussion is that people are thinking about how things have changed - and if they have changed. What we’re teasing out here is not a new business model - that’s plain to see from all of these comments - but rather looking at how a huge number of bands are dealing with new realities.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    86.
    October 31, 2008
    12:47 pm

    i think it probably has a part to play jim… but far, far less than the majority part… i’ll concede that it is one small part of a jigsaw…

    i’m glad you brought up the national… for me, they grew in a short space of time on the back of lauded record reviews from the media, especially pitchfork who absolutely loved alligator as a slow burner… i think the growth of the national had nothing whatsoever to do with word of mouth on their live shows… in fact, i’d go as far as saying that they are disappointing live when compared to record (my opinion)…

    hype around records / next big things grows audiences, not word of mouth about good live performances…

    …if you really believe this, then i would like to see you change the direction of the ticket and give much more print space to live reviews rather than record reviews… give them ratings as well if you must…

    Comment by Ally
    87.
    October 31, 2008
    12:53 pm

    i’ll concede that it is one small part of a jigsaw…

    Wow, after 3 days and 86 comments ;-)

    i think the growth of the national had nothing whatsoever to do with word of mouth on their live shows…

    And I’d totally disagree. In Dublin, the buzz about that show in Whelan’s in Nov 2005 was something else and contributed directly to their 3 shows in Nov 2007 selling out so fast. Sure, there was a new album inbetween and more press coverage but I reckon a goodly portion of the audience were there because of what they had heard or read about that show

    hype around records / next big things grows audiences, not word of mouth about good live performances…

    I dont know about that Ally. Sure, some hype might bring in a short-term bump but is it good enough to sustain a long-term audience? Will hype alone convert an audience into 1000 Fans? Doubt it.

    …if you really believe this, then i would like to see you change the direction of the ticket and give much more print space to live reviews rather than record reviews… give them ratings as well if you must…

    Not my call, dude, I’m not the editor. By the way, I personally think I should be writing ALL of The Ticket (even the comedy and opera stuff) but thats my rampant, savage, limitles ego for you.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    88.
    October 31, 2008
    1:16 pm

    Great post JC. Good work.

    Comment by NaRocRoc
    89.
    October 31, 2008
    1:23 pm

    fair enough on the ticket call… unfortunately, i am going to disagree again on the other points..

    firstly two years and massive media hype in between are two big variables when trying to work out what jumped the national’s audience between november ‘05 and ‘07… remember, alligator didn’t really take off until after that whelans show… the same jumps will have happened everywhere else, even in the cities where they may have played the worst show of their lives on that november ‘05 tour…

    hype absolutely gives the catalyst to convert an audience in to 1000 long term fans… the number of fans is irrelevant to the quality of the music as we all know… 50 people go to a show, band releases really good album, media hype that album, people buy the album, 1000 people go to the next show because the album strikes a chord… this has far more to do with it than word of mouth over the quality of the initial show…

    …this is what i think anyway… as i said, word of mouth live performances can play a part and on occasions maybe a major part… but in general, it is a small part of the equation…

    Comment by Ally
    90.
    October 31, 2008
    1:24 pm

    “I reckon a goodly portion of the audience were there because of what they had heard or read about that show”

    Given that Alligator came out in April 2005 and took off within a few months it’s a fairly makey uppy argument to claim that it was their live shows rather than excellent album sales that brought the punters along the next time. If the album was a commercial failure but folk still came along then you might have a point to make. Also, Ive seen The National live and they are a distinclty average live band imho.

    Comment by Vinnie
    91.
    October 31, 2008
    2:42 pm

    What I find really interesting about the discussion is the pessimism of the dissenters.

    Dont get me wrong - I’ve no problem with people disagreeing with me and I know the businss model drafted above is not the complete or full shilling - but I’d like to hear some alternatives.

    Vinnie, Ally and Meep - I take it some/all of you are in a band or work with bands. At any rate, you’re all interested in this discussion. What are YOUR suggestions for how bands will build an audience in the future?

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    92.
    October 31, 2008
    2:52 pm

    “What are YOUR suggestions for how bands will build an audience in the future?”

    I find this whole thread rather curious to be honest. Bands will build their audiences in the future the way bands have always built their audiences with the added dimension of the web to utilise. The majority of touring bands have little or no label support so the changing fortunes of major labels is of no serious consequence to most bands. Im not being in the last bit pessimistic!

    Comment by Vinnie
    93.
    October 31, 2008
    2:58 pm

    Thanks for that Vinnie. Couple of questions then to tease this out further (if you dont want to answer these, that’s cool).

    How many live shows a year does your band do? Is this more or less than what you did when the band started? Have the fees you receive for these shows gone up? And lastly, has the additional touring had an effect on record sales?

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    94.
    October 31, 2008
    5:38 pm

    “The point of the post is to do with how an act promotes themselves and how this will change in the future.”

    I had assumed a misunderstanding on my part hence the caveat. However now that I understand the point of the post I might be able to address it a little better.

    Back in the stone age when I was playing in bands there was really very little you could do in terms of self-promotion. You could print up flyers and posters but they were usually a waste (and I would say that is still the case) of time and money (Reads rates weren’t as cheap back then and home printers were a world away). Preferably you would look to get listed in the limited number of magazines and freesheets that were available at that time.

    Fast forward twenty years. There are any number of entertainment sites, blogs, free magazines, myspace, facebook invites, band websites where you can showcase an upcoming gig. Twenty years ago noone would have conceived there would be an entertainment supplement with a national newspaper.

    In terms of opportunity for self-promotion bands have never had it so good.

    However promotion does not always translate into punters paying into your gig. I’m not au fait with how gigs happen these days but I assume that things have changed since I was paying the innkeeper of Charlies, The Underground, The Rock Garden, The White Horse & The Earl Grattan. Or have they? In those days you were out of pocket before the doors to the gig were even opened. The only way you could play somewhere without having to shell out was to get a support gig.

    It seemed that all bands wanted to be the next big thing. If they didn’t then someone else usually wanted them to be the next big thing. These days the creation of music seems to be a much more organic and independent affair. Bands have the wherewithal to hone their craft at home in their own studios. The independence this brings usually means that they stay truer to their craft. It means they have the potential to grow in an evolutionary way. I look at the likes of MJEX and twenty years ago they would have been so disillusioned just trying to get one album released. Those guys have managed to release three. That is an exceptional feat in itself. Likewise the slew of Irish albums that have appeared this year. This would never have happened in the old days when record companies ruled the roost. To a large degree music has been democratised. In truth this has its plus and minuses. Everyone now has the wherewithal to make and release an album. Whereas before a record company would filter the amount of these that made it to release it now means that there’s a whole lot more music out there, for better or worse.

    Whatever the future holds I doubt it will be a serious departure for any band struggling to get on the first rung of the ladder. There are a number of tools that such bands need to have. The first is talent. The second is persistence. The third would usually be a neck like a jockeys nether regions. After that its usually in the lap of the gods. It’s a fickle business. Always was, always will be.

    Comment by Matt Vinyl
    95.
    October 31, 2008
    5:39 pm

    Great comment Matt, thanks

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    96.
    November 3, 2008
    8:47 pm

    My father forwarded this article to me. I was initally hesitant to reply, but for the sake of clarity, maybe it’s best I describe touring and the state of the music business as it pertains to me directly.

    The cost of touring is outrageous–I pay out of pocket often for gas, van and backline rentals, accomodations. In the UK & Ireland, we often slept in the van to save money–and until Dublin, we had sold maybe a total of 6 CDs in Ireland alone, all priced down by 5 euros their actual value. While 200 euros in merch sales looks handsome, I have to my CDs. So let’s say I pay $4 for each disc, then price them at $10, it’s really not a very impressive margin. But what’s better? Being stingy, holding out on their true value–or someone at the very least getting to bring the music home with them?

    I do my own merch and say hello to people after the show because I want to thank them for coming–and it’s a genuine gratitude. For our first time in Dublin, 18 people might seem laughable, but to me–that’s still 18 people who could have stayed at home being entertained for free by their television. In this economy, that’s saying something.

    As for our guarantees–they are quickly devoured by the cost of fuel, ferries, foreigner taxes, our booking agent’s commission, and all other travel expenses. For a band like ours, it costs anywhere between 200-300 euros a day to move around. I can safely say we didn’t break even on this tour, not even close. Nor have we broken even on any other tour we’ve been on this year.

    I hope this doesn’t sound like a complaint–it’s a choice. What you are dead on about, Jim, is that the only way a band like mine can sustain nowadays is by touring, touring, touring, and then some. You can wait around until some licensing bid comes a-knocking–or you can put your head down and keep working at it. So we tour on a meager budget, stay with friends instead of in hotels.

    Beyond spending, promotion is a big part of it (nothing new there), and if you’re willing to play that game–as one commenter pointed out–this is probably the best age to be living in. Though blogs have made self-promotion more accessible, I’d argue it hasn’t made it any less time-consuming. There’s only so many hours in the day, and if you’re using more than half of it to push your music instead of writing anything worth pushing in the first place–you’re only shooting yourself in the foot. We could have possibly signed with a larger label, someone more muscular, some well-oiled machine to do the dirty work for us, but this is a problem everyone is grappling with in this industry in one way or another. It isn’t going to change the fact that consumers are not consuming like they used to. Everyone has to pay the piper at some point. I’d rather do it right now, and on my own terms, than later on down the line.

    Thank you for your article.

    –Casey Dienel of White Hinterland

    Comment by Casey Dienel
    97.
    November 4, 2008
    1:14 am

    what an excellent read from start to finish.

    Comment by Sean D
    98.
    November 4, 2008
    10:54 am

    I’ve just stumbled on this post - it’s awesome. As a member of a band starting out, I have to agree with the points Jim made above. And I have to applaud Casey for coming on here and giving her side of things too (which, as she points out, is along to similar lines to what Jim has said). This should become required reading for ALL new bands starting out - just because you only get 18 punters at a gig is not the end of the world.

    Comment by Tim M
    99.
    November 4, 2008
    10:55 am

    Hi Casey, I was one of the people at your Galway gig and I had a blast at the gig. Hope you will be back in Ireland soon

    Comment by Queen Maeve
    100.
    November 4, 2008
    11:18 am

    nice to read casey’s comments… as you would expect (i hope)… for it is the same as it always has been for an unknown act…

    jim, i have not meant to argue with you on this thread for i agree with your article… you don’t get anywhere if you don’t work at it… i just find all this talk of a change in the music business / business models a red herring for the vast majority of people out there…

    Comment by Ally
    101.
    November 4, 2008
    11:34 am

    i just find all this talk of a change in the music business / business models a red herring for the vast majority of people out there

    I never implied at any stage in the original post that this was a new business model. How could I? It has been around for years and years. I have worked with bands who have used it and seen other acts successfully tap into it to build their own audiences. I think the confusion arose because of the use of the word “future” - after all, the “future” can sometimes just be a rehash of the past.

    What I was implying was that this DIY approach (for want of a better term) will now become a much more important business model for ALL acts without an established audience than it may well have been in the past when there were labels to help them grow that audience. The huge feedback I’ve got here and in emails from all over the place leads me to think that maybe the most obvious things in the world often happen to be the ones people overlook.

    I’m also very chuffed that the artist I used as an example for this post was so gracious to take the time to add her thoughts to the debate - and relieved that she did not simply tell me where to go. Such positive contribitions to the discussion are always welcome and much appreciated.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    102.
    November 5, 2008
    10:58 am

    Jim, somewhat following on from your post about White Hinterland the other day, I was at Neon Neon last night and Yo Majesty, who were supporting, announced that they weren’t selling merch because Tripod wanted a 40% cut of the revenue. Is this commonplace? 40 seems incredibly high.

    Comment by Thomas
    103.
    November 5, 2008
    11:45 am

    @ thomas

    it’s becoming more and more commonplace at larger venues

    there are a number of venues here in the UK that are looking for 50%+ of the merchandise which has caused a number of bands to pull out (either in protest or for monetary reasons)

    although in ireland, the figure seemed to be around the 15-25% mark purely for the sake of selling merch in their venue

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    104.
    November 5, 2008
    11:56 am

    Thomas - Yep, Leigh is right. Venue commission has been in effect for years in some venues and the percentage take varies from venue to venue. Obviously, some smaller venues might let a band sell their stuff for free but you can expect a hefty take for the house in a place like the 02, for example. Most acts slap on the fee onto the merch hence the high prices for tees etc - one exception to all this was Tom Waits whe he played Dublin over the summer. But 40% for Tripod does sound a trifle high and off-putting - after all, 40% of nothing is, well, nothing.

    Comment by Jim Carroll
    105.
    November 5, 2008
    12:18 pm

    I think it was Marilion (or someone of their ilk) a couple of years ago pulled out of a series of dates on a UK tour because the cost of selling merch meant that they would lose money on every item sold at those gigs

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    106.
    November 5, 2008
    4:31 pm

    Did not think the merch fee would be so high. It’s bit cheeky no? I presume bands don’t get a cut of alcohol sales.

    Comment by Sean D
    107.
    November 5, 2008
    5:16 pm

    “Yep, Leigh is right.”

    by the way jim, i’m printing that off, framing it and sticking it on my wall…

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    108.
    November 5, 2008
    8:49 pm

    “Did not think the merch fee would be so high. It’s bit cheeky no? I presume bands don’t get a cut of alcohol sales”

    never in a thousand million years sean

    Comment by Leigh O'Gorman
    109.
    January 6, 2009
    9:04 pm

    I’ve just come across this blog. Amazing number of comments! Something that crossed my mind on first reading Jim’s piece was that no local Irish act would stand a chance of getting a gig in Dublin if the promoter felt that only 18 people were going to turn up. And there is no shortage of local acts trying to get gigs.

    Comment by EDDIE JOYCE

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