“Well boo-hoo,” you might say. Buying any property is a risk and she should never have held on to her first property if she can’t take the heat. But couldn’t the same be said of anyone who buys a property, even as a family home? Isn’t it always a risk? How many of us really knew how things were going to turn out? And wouldn’t more of us have invested during the boom if we’d had the opportunity?

I didn’t invest in property during the boom, I did buy a house back in ‘98 before the madness started. Any money I did have I put some in savings and some in various equities and forestry. I didn’t see any of these as risk free but on balance less risky than property, and also could easily sell them if needed. Investment 101. And no I don’t want a medal. “Because everyone else is” is not a good reason to invest, in fact it’s mostly a terrible reason.

Yes of course it is a risk, but getting out of bed (or staying in it) in the morning is a risk. That’s life. Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes. Would the same person have bought 300K of say, pork bellies, whose price had been skyrocketing for years with no obvious cause, and similarly consider it risk-free? Now the renters are winning, before it was the landlords.

I never understood people going on about property as if it was some sort of magical thing and not subject to the laws of economics like everything else. It was more like a religious sect than a business, complete with branding anyone daring to question that property values always go up as a heretic.

Amazing really.

Ah! Edel, A couple of points. Not being able to keep up with the mortgage on your home is not the same as being unable to service the mortgage on an investment property.
I’m afraid it was those who sought to look after their own financial well~being by investing in property/properties other than the family home which helped create and sustain the property bubble that brought the country to iits knees.
All of this facilitated by easy credit, and in the background the bankers developers and speculators rubbing their hands in glee as the gullible bought into their lies.

I’ve been renting since I was 18 and I’m 30 now. I’ve met all sorts of landlords…. like the creepy pervs that enjoy renting out a 4 bed house to 10-12 college girls and just provide enough furnishings (that house I looked at, the “sitting room” comprised of a narrow room and wooden chairs) and I have met every charleton and rip off landlord you can imagine. The worst are the ones who don’t have a clue about anything and deny any responsibility and just want the rent off you, regardless of how bad the dwelling may be. While single pane windows are effectively illegal in a rented property, there are plenty of dwellings still available that still have single paned windows, and that’s always a red flag to know they’re unregistered landlords

I recall in 2009 I was looking for a new place to live. I’d generally end up arranging everything through a woman, only to be met unexpectedly by a man to show me around. One landlord who had turned up to meet me tried to fob me off with a bad property to rent – a small dingy 1 bed flat just off a main road that was the ground floor of a complex and it was right next to and above the heating to the whole complex. It was roasting in there. He tried to sell it by means of “sure you’d never need to worry about heating the place”. There was only 1 entrance and exit, the front door that led to the street that opened into the kitchen/sittingroom which had the bare minimum of windows and light. When I didn’t bait, he tried to elicit sympathy by stating that his last tenants, 2 women, disappeared off in the middle of the night and he never knew. Then he want on about the other 10 properties that he has on offer. That particular one he had refitted the plumbing, what was a bedroom was now a bathroom and the old bathroom was a bedroom. It was a bad property, badly kept, unsuitable for living in and he was looking in the region of 800+ of rent a month.

Another one around the same area, again, arranged with a woman, met unexpectedly by the hubby. They didn’t even know who or what PTRB is. Lovely place, almost took it. They had blocked off the fireplace and fitted storage heaters. I pointed out that heating the place would be difficult because of the high ceilings. One bedroom led out to a single pane patio door that didn’t have a key (just a plastic switch to lock) that led to a patio that was open and led onto the main road. 800 – 900 a month. Pass.

Another I went to was a flat upstairs above a pub. Payment of rent was to be cash in hand to be left into the pub. Landlord was a complete perv, the flat was alright, quite spacious, but the whole hallway from downstairs to upstairs was a mess of old newspapers, rubbish, and the existence of rats and the place stank of urine.

I have very, very little sympathy for the old style landlords that have been avoiding paying tax and give tenants no rights and are unregistered. I also have little sympathy for those who bought an investment property without knowing much about the legal side or what you’re supposed to do or be obligated to do as a landlord. Especially the ones who live in another city and are really difficult to get in contact with when you need something or when something is wrong, or guilt tripped when you intend on moving out and then turn up on some bank holiday weekend with the spouse and kids in tow to do some DIY for the day rather than get a professional in to deal with it.

In the years I’ve been ripped off by various landlords, had to deal with meeting the absolute pervs, had the rent increased several times and lazy landlords who won’t even deal with serious issues between housemates of the psycho kind or fix up the place or replace things when asked. Some are so greedy that have little interest in re-investing the damn rent paid into doing up the place or even checking in on how the property is. One house I recall, previous tenants decided to paint murals in every room of the house. When I ended up responding to an ad by college students looking for another college student to rent with them, I asked about it. They had said to the landlord and the landlord simply didn’t care. Even said we could paint over it or whatever we liked!

Boo hoo is all I have to say to them.

Yes Jaygee, I realise it’s not the same thing but my point is that not all investors were in the big league. Many Irish investors are small time and many didn’t go after property but just held onto their first property as a way of providing for their future

I’ve every ’sympathy’ for anyone suffering as a result of Ireland getting Her karma (righteous karma sure is there any other sort no) including small speculators who joined in the feeding frenzy sure that’s not an instinctive reaction unique to the Great Apes it’s common across all predatory species including us can’t hardly be blamed for doing what’s in our nature. And I’ve every empathy for anyone who faces losing their family home as a result of misfortunate purchasing decisions and investments/speculations going badly wrong. Including say where you geared your existing property in order to acquire other properties, or most unfortunate of all, where you re-geared a property on which you’d long paid off your mortgage just to get your son or daughter onto the Ponzi pyramid of the housing ladder, and are now facing losing your home in your old age.

That aside, home-owners are still getting a relatively easier deal if things go south for them financially by comparison to private tenants. If as a home owner you cannot service your mortgage, but are making every reasonable and decent attempt to do so, you’ve a lot of safety nets and supports. For instance, the bank can’t even begin trying to repossess your home until you’re at least twelve months in arrears. And if you’re making any sort of a decent effort even after that time, the Courts will look most favourably on your case.

By contrast, try running just one month late with your rent. Or paying it short for two. You’ll be out on yer ear and the few sticks of furniture tossed out on the street behind you. Private tenants whom are working but barely able to afford to live, perhaps go without their medication because they can’t afford the 132 euro a month, are the most screwed. Moreover, some are people who’ve lost their own homes; still have the mortgage shortfall hung around their necks forever, and are trying to keep up appearances and keep things decent by renting. My heart goes out to them.
Not but that my heart going out to them and EUR2.50 still won’t even buy them a cup of coffee to keep them warm in this dump of a country.

While I can even find it in my heart to sympathise with the example you have outlined, the fact of the matter is, anyone who used property as an investment (no matter how noble their motives) have had a disproportionate effect on our current economic circumstances to those of us who either never bought, or stuck with just the one property.

The dramatic rise and catastrophic collapse in prices is directly related to those types of purchasers you refer to. Give me professional landlords any day, at least they run it like a business and have a business plan. The best landlords I ever had owned more than ten properties, they had a decent system of dealing with any and all issues.

These buy-to-let small timers bought properties that were overvalued, didn’t do the research and are now getting hammered for a bad business decision, not a bad lifestyle decision.

If you want to invest for your future, buy something that actually has the prospect of producing something of economic value, otherwise be more careful when borrowing 8 times what you owe.

Very few professional landlords were foolish enough to spend their money during the boom. Though they are no angels themselves, their problems can be easily controlled by properly regulated residential property standards.

Cry baby buy-to-let landlords! Next!

In the end instead of people talking about buildings as ‘homes’ it was the same buildings as ‘properties’ or ‘investments’. This was the sad thing about the frenzy that people got caught up in. People talked about how much their ‘property’ increased daily.It wasn’t just Ireland, it was just the same everywhere the ghastly disease of Reagonomics had destroyed any belief in communality and as Thatcher tried to claim “There was no such thing as society”
It was the fear of missing out on the party and the desperate scramble to get onto the housing ladder at any price
The problem with this was that not only was it unsustainable but when the bubble burst ,everyone would be affected by the fall out, even those who had never bought into the dream.
It can be a personal thing too,being a landlord is not necessarily everyone’s cup of tea. I suppose that affects my attitude to such a situation.

People need somewhere to live if they don’t own their own homes. Landlords provide a service. It is either profitable for them to do so or not. Right now it is not. Lots of landlords made mistakes. Easy for those on the sidelines to say so now. Bakers bake bread, doctors cure people. They all get paid for their work. Why not landlords ?? I don’t see how someone with multiple rental properties is more or less deserving than any other business owner. Some commentators here need to grow up. Individual landlords or investors didn’t cause the bubble or the crash. Government policy, improper regulation and an electorate demanding higher incomes and lower taxes created this mess.

However, it is clear that the vast majority of investors will steer clear of property for the next few years. Tenants in the major city centres will face higher rents. Government actions recently have been knee jerk and imprudent and will result in a shortage of suitable property for letting once the economy recovers and immigration from Europe recommences (most of the vacant NAMA property is in places where people would rather not live). Believe it or not there is not an oversupply of rental property in Dublin and Cork city centres and rents are rising again.

As an experienced investor with all my properties fully let at good rents I can say that the only impediment to prices rising is the lack of bank credit. I and others I know would like to buy more properties especially at current prices but lack of finance makes it impossible. Threshold will soon be complaining about rising rents and profiteering by landlords when in fact prices will simply be set by the laws of supply and demand.

This debate needs some consideration and maturity.

Here’s a delicious irony folks. Just heard on the News that Cameron and Co. have just sold 9% of Thames Water (biggest water and sewage co. in UK) to the Chinese Government !

“I and others I know would like to buy more properties especially at current prices but lack of finance makes it impossible.”

Jeepers, my heart bleeds for you. There plenty more that would like to buy a house merely to live in but sure what’s that in comparison to your predicament.

I have just two little Latin words that sum all of this up…”Caveat Emptor” – end of chat. We are all grown adults who should have the maturity and common sense to make prudent financial decisions, given that if we get it wrong out lives can be utterly ruined.

I have exactly the same amount of sympathy for them as those who lost money on their other investment types. Bad luck really, but what can you do, all investments carry risk. I don’t particularly care about the in’s and out’s of why a property investment came about, or why it has failed, any more than I want to hear about someone’s portfolio of stocks.

Why is property investment considered special? Its effectively a business you run on the side, on credit. You make a profit or you dont… end of story. Should we cry for everyone who took a risk and lost at business?

Paul – the article isnt about people in your position or those who needed to trade up but werent in a position to sell their first property or other scenarios like that. its about people who intentionaly ‘took a punt’ on two, three or more properties to let, at a profit. contributing to the bubble and helping to price people out of the market.

but yknow they were doing it for their kids which somehow means you have to feel sorry for them or whatever.

They bet, and they lost. Simple as that. Losing gamblers do not deserve an ounce of sympathy. Winning gamblers do not deserve an ounce of praise.

They bet on the property/rental/jobs market, and they lost. Simple as that.
Losing gamblers deserve no sympathy. Winning gamblers deserve no praise.

As many have said, it was all the ‘me-too’ landlords who collectively bid up prices & increased the costs of a home, whether rented or bought for everybody. Now the market has crashed & caused recession, falling wages, job insecurity, unemployment & much tightened deposit requirements means many people are still unable to afford a home of their own. I think Edel & the me-too landlords should take a little moral reflection on the fact that property is not some optional frippery, but homes where people live & raise their families – and everybody needs one.

But even in Edel’s own terms, her argument for sympathy for those who merely held on to their previous property when buying another does not really hold water. Where the motivation is solely to move up to a better or larger house, the typical owner would have owned their original property some years at least, 5 or more likely 10. In which case the first property would have been bought at a much lower price than in the peak of the boom. In which case, the rent income from the first property almost certainly continues to cover any outstanding mortgage costs. What such people are more likely whinging about is the high mortgage costs & negative equity of the house they bought nearer the peak, which they live in themselves. So long as they still have their job, all they are short is the profits they would have made from a rip off inflated rent, had the boom (rediculously) continued. Long term, they will still own two properties. (Whereas the people renting still have no chance of owning.) If they lose their job, well, they’re in trouble, welcome to the other half of Irish society who got nothing from the boom but the higher cost of a home.

All that said, we should not forget the people who have really escaped scott free for their culpability. The banksters, regulators & politicians who facilitated & encouraged the whole thing – many of whom were also on the bandwagon, but at the ’smarter’ upper end of the pyramid & made sure they’d cashed out or were otherwise ok when the inevitable crash came. Sadly, & inexplicably, we’re still letting these greedy scammers run things.

Agree with the article. There’s an old Irish attitude that the begrudges landlords. We’re seeing some of it in these comments.

Derfinns story relates much more to the reality that the OPs fantasy world. When not listening to the boasting and bragging from speculator colleagues I do remember one friend who really thought she’d never be able afford anything going to try to buy complete dives. The very worst had one thing in common: they were all rented out and the tenant still in situ, except for one who’d absconded. They were all horrendous and in all cases the price went up by 10% pricing my friend out. In the end she bought one that the last evicted tenant had wrecked and it turned out that the heating was incorrectly wired! FTBs were completely brushed aside by the investors during the boom and those investors have some neck now with their sob stories.

I say boo hoo too.

If they can’t make the repayments, they should sell the property.
If they have negative equity on the sale, they should sell other assets to make up the difference.
If that sends them broke, then they should declare bankruptcy.

as you say there are far more vulnerable people out there than landlords and matters have been made worse for them by buy to let landlords directly or indirectly. I think this is the point. the IT needs to think about what stories it chooses to tell.
this article is disingenuous. of course people sympathise with individuals in dire straits, but the broader picture is ignored- that buy to let was a bad idea for society all along. ok I go back to russia now.

Living in France for the best part of 20 years I’ve been watching the property situation in Ireland for years. Aside from the stereotypical landlands etc, the real problem in Ireland was a lack of proper legislation and accountability. The banking legislation in France is strict; you can spend no more than 30% of your income on a mortgage. There’s no negotiation, this is the reality. This means that people couldn’t decide to buy another house whilst still having their first house/mortgage (bridging loans are extremely rare here too). That plus the expensive legal fees means that most people in France do not sell untl they have their first property for 8 years in order to fully absorb the costs. Such a shame that countless Irish goverrnments hadn’t got the wherewithal to listen to advice given by OECD to cool down the property market when they could have. Whilst I feel sympathy for those in negative equity and debt (some of my family members are in that situation); it seems that in Ireland there was some sort of frenzy and all common sense went out the window. Irish banks seemed to be completely different from when I lived there in the 80’s where it was virtually impossible to open a current account. Luckily in France the legislation and government prevents people from being their own worst enemies and getting into unnecessary debt. It would be interesting to see whether banking legislation finally gets changed in Ireland – and those who were involved in this mess finally held accountable.

I understand that there are unwilling landlords out there but as someone who has been renting for 10 years I take the tennants view. While I appreciate that some landlords are unwilling, that doesnt mean that the tennants should pay over the odds or have to do with substandard accomodation becuase the landlord cannot afford to put money back into the property. While part of me has sympathy over the property taxes the other part of me is just thinking- well boo hoo. renters have had to take pay cuts too! We have to pay increased vat, heath insurance, petrol costs higher utilities etc also! Renters feel the pressure too! And like an earlier commenter said- we miss a months rent and we are out! becuase WE are paying someone elses mortgage!

And Edel, I dont know if people who kept onto their old property in 2005 when moving up can be called unwilling landlords. While things may have hit the fan for them now, they still made the decision to keep and rent out the property in the first place. Naive landlords may be a better way to describe them but I do think that there was a factor of greed in thier decision!

Oh yeah- I worked in mortgages in 2006/2007 so i saw first hand the attitude. I didnt work in sales- just services- but i routed a lot of calls to mortageg sales- especially top-ups. the banks were giving them out goodo but there was demand!

They bet, and they lost. Simple as that. Losing gamblers do not deserve an ounce of sympathy. Winning gamblers do not deserve an ounce of praise.

THIS 1 MILLION + TIMES.

Reading the likes of this (much as swallowing the PRediCtions of real estate agents same as stockbrokers bankers politicians in fact any Irish veste interest come to think of it requires more salt than your county councils run out of each winter) doesn’t exactly cause me a quiver of ’sympathy’ (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1202/breaking38.html)
So, given I’m robbed by the Satraps to pay the gambling debts of Ireland’s Elites; and I’m presently to be robbed again to pay the gambling debts of every dog an divil who got into shtuck borrowing 10 and 20X their income (and that’s including all the lies they told on their application form regarding non-existent overtime and bonuses and so on and so forth) and tho’ I never got sucked up in the madness (‘cos inter alia I knew that if the Irish could nod and wink at their country being made party to illegal war and torture they could nod and wink at anything and as we see they did) it’s a bit rich now to ask me to feel ’sympathy’ for landlords who will presently be reaping the rewards of owning rental property in a morally, financially, karmically, bankrupt country where Bill Gates probably couldn’t get a mortgage.
Not that I think for a nano-second a smart man like Mr Gates would ever want to come live in this dump.

i FIND IT ABSOLUTELY AMAZING THAT SO MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH THE “BOO HOO” COMMENT. I FIND IT VERY DEPRESSING THAT THE IRISH PEOPLE STILL HAVE NOT COPPED ON TO THE BIGGER PICTURE I.E. WE ARE BEING MADE TO PAY FOR GAMBLING LOSSES THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PAID BY THE ENTITIES RESPONSIBLE I.E. GERMAN & FRENCH BANKS.THEY WERE ALLOWED TO FLOOD IRELAND WITH BUCKETS OF CASH FOR PROFIT AND WERE NOT REIGNED IN BY THE ECB. THE ECB THEN BULLY OUR WEAK/UNDER QUALIFIED/COULDN’T CARE LESS POLITIICIANS/CIVIL SERVANTS TO COVER/SOCIALISE THOSE PRIVATE DEBTS.THE PRO-BOO-HOOISTS NEED TO TAKE OFF THEIR BLINKERS AND GET DOWN OFF THEIR HIGH HORSES AND FOCUS ON WHO THE REAL ENEMY IS HERE I.E.OUR PATHETIC POLITICAL CLASS,TRADE UNIONS/CROKE PARK AGREEMENT AND THE THE TROIKA.THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO WILL FORCE YOUR CHILDREN TO EMIGRATE AND NOT THE LANDLORDS WHO AT LEAST CREATED SOME EMPLOYMENT AND GENERATED TAX INCOME AND PROVIDED SHELTER FOR PEOPLE ALBEIT AT A COST.THESE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WILL CHIP AWAY AT YOUR STANDARD OF LIVING OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS.

I CAN’T HELP THINKING THAT THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF “THANK GOD THERE WAS A PROPERTY CRASH BECAUSE I THOUGHT I HAD MISSED THE BOAT” AMONG THE PRO BOO-HOO-ISTS.TAKE A STEP BACK AND WAKE UP TO WHO THE REAL ENEMY IS FOR YOUR OWN SAKE.