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  • irishtimes.com - Posted: January 19, 2012 @ 10:29 am

    Well boo-hoo – landlords in trouble get very little sympathy

    Edel Morgan

    Not all landlords in trouble greedily accumulated property during the boom

    “Well boo-hoo!” was the response of a colleague recently to the news that landlords are having a hard time of it lately. It seems that there is every sympathy  for the person who falls into difficulty with the repayments on their family home but very little for those who can’t service a mortgage on an investment property. But  is that entirely fair?

    Not every landlord  has a bulging portfolio of property they  accumulated during the boom. Not every landlord is a mean-minded grasping Rigsby-style character that would charge tenants through the nose to live in a garden shed, if they could get away with it. In fact the figures suggest that most Irish investors  are not career landlords, they are small-time investors who  accumulated  an extra  property or three through a combination of circumstances and easy credit.

    There are quite a few landlords out there who acquired their status when they traded up and decided not to sell their first property. By renting it out, they reckoned the mortgage would be taken care of and the property could be a nest egg for them when they retire or a place they could eventually pass on to their kids. With the first property ticking over some may have taken a punt on a second investment property, thinking they were doing the right thing for their future. Nothing overly ambitious – not exactly hoovering up every available property – but boy are some of them regretting it now. Because if you fall into financial difficulty with an investment property that isn’t paying its way, it is a dreadful drain on resources.  For those who are struggling to make ends meet and pay the mortgage on their family home, the problem is magnified if you also have an investment property to subsidise.

    And if you bought it after 2002- 2003  with a  mortgage (ie you weren’t a cash buyer) it  is  likely to now be in some degree of negative equity so selling may not be an option. If you got a top-up loan to refurbish the place the chances are your rent mightn’t be covering the mortgage and if you have a social welfare tenant  you are likely to be  under pressure to reduce your rent. Add to that the household tax, NPPR charge, PRTB registration fees and  service charges.

    A friend of mine owes €900 this year between the NPPR, household tax on her own house and  on  her investment property and a  €300 service charge on her investment property.  She held on to her first house in west Dublin when she got married , a modest three-bed, and let it out to a social welfare tenant. Now eight years and several children later the rental property is in negative equity, her husband is unemployed and she is supporting the family on a much-reduced wage. She has no idea how she is going to pay the charges on the rental property and is considering finding herself a second  job at the weekend to keep  everthing afloat. Meanwhile her social welfare tenant (because that is predominantly the market in the area  where she owns the house) is asking her to reduce the rent. As it is, the rent is €200 shy of the montly mortgage repayment because she has already reduced it  several times over the past 24 months to stay in line with local rents. Then there’s income tax payable on the property,  a hefty enough sum,  even though she’s not making a profit.

    “Well boo-hoo,” you might say. Buying any property is a risk and she should never have held on to her first property  if she can’t take the heat. But couldn’t the same be said of anyone who buys a property, even as a family home? Isn’t it always a risk? How many of us really knew how things were going to turn out? And wouldn’t more of us have invested during the boom if we’d had the opportunity?

  • 52 Comments »

    1.
    January 19, 2012
    12:34 pm

    “Well boo-hoo,” you might say. Buying any property is a risk and she should never have held on to her first property if she can’t take the heat. But couldn’t the same be said of anyone who buys a property, even as a family home? Isn’t it always a risk? How many of us really knew how things were going to turn out? And wouldn’t more of us have invested during the boom if we’d had the opportunity?

    I didn’t invest in property during the boom, I did buy a house back in ‘98 before the madness started. Any money I did have I put some in savings and some in various equities and forestry. I didn’t see any of these as risk free but on balance less risky than property, and also could easily sell them if needed. Investment 101. And no I don’t want a medal. “Because everyone else is” is not a good reason to invest, in fact it’s mostly a terrible reason.

    Yes of course it is a risk, but getting out of bed (or staying in it) in the morning is a risk. That’s life. Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes. Would the same person have bought 300K of say, pork bellies, whose price had been skyrocketing for years with no obvious cause, and similarly consider it risk-free? Now the renters are winning, before it was the landlords.

    I never understood people going on about property as if it was some sort of magical thing and not subject to the laws of economics like everything else. It was more like a religious sect than a business, complete with branding anyone daring to question that property values always go up as a heretic.

    Amazing really.

    Comment by Bob
    2.
    January 19, 2012
    12:44 pm

    I’m afraid I agree completely with ‘well boo hoo’

    Comment by Grainne Wall
    3.
    January 19, 2012
    1:07 pm

    Ah! Edel, A couple of points. Not being able to keep up with the mortgage on your home is not the same as being unable to service the mortgage on an investment property.
    I’m afraid it was those who sought to look after their own financial well~being by investing in property/properties other than the family home which helped create and sustain the property bubble that brought the country to iits knees.
    All of this facilitated by easy credit, and in the background the bankers developers and speculators rubbing their hands in glee as the gullible bought into their lies.

    Comment by jaygee
    4.
    January 19, 2012
    1:45 pm

    That may be the story with your friend, and she has my sympathies.
    But, she would have made an amazing profit if she had decided to sell.

    I can remember when I was buying, as a first time buyer, in 2005 while in my early 30s. I can remember visiting a development launch one Saturday, and the queues were out the door. In the queue, I got talking with a young couple who were excited about beginning their life living together, having saved hard for 2 years. They could only afford the cheapest property on site, of which there were only a handful.

    While speaking to the sales staff, nobody could listen, as a new investor repeatedly shouted out that she required 2 apartments on the same floor, as it would be more convenient for her and her husband. She said that she would pay a premium of €5,000 per property to realise this requirement.

    When I could discuss my reuqirements with the saleman, there was no suitable properties left. I resigned myself to search those already for sale in the completed part of the development. While doing so, I was nearly ran over by Mrs. Investor’s husband, as he drove around, trying to take down the details of the same estate.

    While I returned to my car, I remember seeing the young couple in there’s, and both sobbing, while they looked at the deposit cheque that they could not use.

    Comment by Derfinn
    5.
    January 19, 2012
    2:04 pm

    I’ve been renting since I was 18 and I’m 30 now. I’ve met all sorts of landlords…. like the creepy pervs that enjoy renting out a 4 bed house to 10-12 college girls and just provide enough furnishings (that house I looked at, the “sitting room” comprised of a narrow room and wooden chairs) and I have met every charleton and rip off landlord you can imagine. The worst are the ones who don’t have a clue about anything and deny any responsibility and just want the rent off you, regardless of how bad the dwelling may be. While single pane windows are effectively illegal in a rented property, there are plenty of dwellings still available that still have single paned windows, and that’s always a red flag to know they’re unregistered landlords

    I recall in 2009 I was looking for a new place to live. I’d generally end up arranging everything through a woman, only to be met unexpectedly by a man to show me around. One landlord who had turned up to meet me tried to fob me off with a bad property to rent – a small dingy 1 bed flat just off a main road that was the ground floor of a complex and it was right next to and above the heating to the whole complex. It was roasting in there. He tried to sell it by means of “sure you’d never need to worry about heating the place”. There was only 1 entrance and exit, the front door that led to the street that opened into the kitchen/sittingroom which had the bare minimum of windows and light. When I didn’t bait, he tried to elicit sympathy by stating that his last tenants, 2 women, disappeared off in the middle of the night and he never knew. Then he want on about the other 10 properties that he has on offer. That particular one he had refitted the plumbing, what was a bedroom was now a bathroom and the old bathroom was a bedroom. It was a bad property, badly kept, unsuitable for living in and he was looking in the region of 800+ of rent a month.

    Another one around the same area, again, arranged with a woman, met unexpectedly by the hubby. They didn’t even know who or what PTRB is. Lovely place, almost took it. They had blocked off the fireplace and fitted storage heaters. I pointed out that heating the place would be difficult because of the high ceilings. One bedroom led out to a single pane patio door that didn’t have a key (just a plastic switch to lock) that led to a patio that was open and led onto the main road. 800 – 900 a month. Pass.

    Another I went to was a flat upstairs above a pub. Payment of rent was to be cash in hand to be left into the pub. Landlord was a complete perv, the flat was alright, quite spacious, but the whole hallway from downstairs to upstairs was a mess of old newspapers, rubbish, and the existence of rats and the place stank of urine.

    I have very, very little sympathy for the old style landlords that have been avoiding paying tax and give tenants no rights and are unregistered. I also have little sympathy for those who bought an investment property without knowing much about the legal side or what you’re supposed to do or be obligated to do as a landlord. Especially the ones who live in another city and are really difficult to get in contact with when you need something or when something is wrong, or guilt tripped when you intend on moving out and then turn up on some bank holiday weekend with the spouse and kids in tow to do some DIY for the day rather than get a professional in to deal with it.

    In the years I’ve been ripped off by various landlords, had to deal with meeting the absolute pervs, had the rent increased several times and lazy landlords who won’t even deal with serious issues between housemates of the psycho kind or fix up the place or replace things when asked. Some are so greedy that have little interest in re-investing the damn rent paid into doing up the place or even checking in on how the property is. One house I recall, previous tenants decided to paint murals in every room of the house. When I ended up responding to an ad by college students looking for another college student to rent with them, I asked about it. They had said to the landlord and the landlord simply didn’t care. Even said we could paint over it or whatever we liked!

    Boo hoo is all I have to say to them.

    Comment by Rustybucket
    6.
    January 19, 2012
    2:16 pm

    Landlords take a risk get a reward or don’t, let the chips fall as they may. Excepting those letting under the ”rent-a-room” scheme, whereby they’re actually letting out part of their primary residence (generally to make up the shortfall on their monthly mortgage), landlords have somewhere else to live while they take a punt on making money and accumulating assets above and beyond the lower slopes of Mazlow.
    Tenants need a place to live. They cling like barnacles to the lower slopes of Mazlow and often they’re washed off or gnawed on by more aggressive/well-armed forms of life.

    To whom should go the sympathy (not that sympathy was ever any use outside it’s place in the dictionary between sh1t and syphilis. Empathy now, that’s a different kettle of fish?

    Comment by John O'Driscoll
    7.
    January 19, 2012
    2:21 pm

    Yes Jaygee, I realise it’s not the same thing but my point is that not all investors were in the big league. Many Irish investors are small time and many didn’t go after property but just held onto their first property as a way of providing for their future

    Comment by Edel Morgan
    8.
    January 19, 2012
    3:28 pm

    True, not all investors were in the big league…. but when you add up the many “small time investors” who held onto their previous properties when trading up, it would be quiet a number. This sort of thing is what pushed property prices up too high for first time buyers making an unsustainable market.

    Investment in property is speculation and even small time investor are still speculators…so boo-hoo indeed.

    Comment by Lynn
    9.
    January 19, 2012
    6:02 pm

    I’ve every ’sympathy’ for anyone suffering as a result of Ireland getting Her karma (righteous karma sure is there any other sort no) including small speculators who joined in the feeding frenzy sure that’s not an instinctive reaction unique to the Great Apes it’s common across all predatory species including us can’t hardly be blamed for doing what’s in our nature. And I’ve every empathy for anyone who faces losing their family home as a result of misfortunate purchasing decisions and investments/speculations going badly wrong. Including say where you geared your existing property in order to acquire other properties, or most unfortunate of all, where you re-geared a property on which you’d long paid off your mortgage just to get your son or daughter onto the Ponzi pyramid of the housing ladder, and are now facing losing your home in your old age.

    That aside, home-owners are still getting a relatively easier deal if things go south for them financially by comparison to private tenants. If as a home owner you cannot service your mortgage, but are making every reasonable and decent attempt to do so, you’ve a lot of safety nets and supports. For instance, the bank can’t even begin trying to repossess your home until you’re at least twelve months in arrears. And if you’re making any sort of a decent effort even after that time, the Courts will look most favourably on your case.

    By contrast, try running just one month late with your rent. Or paying it short for two. You’ll be out on yer ear and the few sticks of furniture tossed out on the street behind you. Private tenants whom are working but barely able to afford to live, perhaps go without their medication because they can’t afford the 132 euro a month, are the most screwed. Moreover, some are people who’ve lost their own homes; still have the mortgage shortfall hung around their necks forever, and are trying to keep up appearances and keep things decent by renting. My heart goes out to them.
    Not but that my heart going out to them and EUR2.50 still won’t even buy them a cup of coffee to keep them warm in this dump of a country.

    Comment by John O'Driscoll
    10.
    January 19, 2012
    6:38 pm

    Edel
    I agree with the last commenter – its a difficult stiutation and people shouldnt be demonised for their mistakes. HOWEVER – its inappropriate to be canvassing sympathy for property speculators.

    How did all these ’small time investors’ trade up without using the proceeds of the sale of their first home?

    Presumably they were wealthy enough – easy credit notwithstanding – to be approved for several mortgages. Presumably they were ok with the fact that their prospective tenants would never be in this position.
    So….yeah ‘boo hoo’ about sums it up

    Comment by J Ennis
    11.
    January 19, 2012
    7:54 pm

    While I can even find it in my heart to sympathise with the example you have outlined, the fact of the matter is, anyone who used property as an investment (no matter how noble their motives) have had a disproportionate effect on our current economic circumstances to those of us who either never bought, or stuck with just the one property.

    The dramatic rise and catastrophic collapse in prices is directly related to those types of purchasers you refer to. Give me professional landlords any day, at least they run it like a business and have a business plan. The best landlords I ever had owned more than ten properties, they had a decent system of dealing with any and all issues.

    These buy-to-let small timers bought properties that were overvalued, didn’t do the research and are now getting hammered for a bad business decision, not a bad lifestyle decision.

    If you want to invest for your future, buy something that actually has the prospect of producing something of economic value, otherwise be more careful when borrowing 8 times what you owe.

    Very few professional landlords were foolish enough to spend their money during the boom. Though they are no angels themselves, their problems can be easily controlled by properly regulated residential property standards.

    Comment by Cian O'Connor
    12.
    January 19, 2012
    8:37 pm

    Some would have leveraged equity on the first property to enable them to trade up, they might not have been particularly wealthy .”Top up” loans were widely available and it might have seemed like a good idea at the time to use that money to put a deposit on a new place. As for them being ok with the fact their prospective tenants never being in this position…who says their prospective tenants would never be in this position? Don’t many tenants go on to own property?

    Comment by Edel Morgan
    13.
    January 19, 2012
    9:37 pm

    Cry baby buy-to-let landlords! Next!

    Comment by Rob Dowling
    14.
    January 19, 2012
    10:39 pm

    Fair enough, but as you say ’some may have taken a punt on a second investment property’…..and so on.

    Yes, many tenants do indeed go on to own property. But you mention one landlord’s case in a rental market of predominantly social welfare tenants. And you conclude saying not all of us had these opportunities.

    not slamming people that made mistakes, it all depends where you stand on the ethics of buy-to-let in the first place

    Comment by J Ennis
    15.
    January 19, 2012
    10:53 pm

    In the end instead of people talking about buildings as ‘homes’ it was the same buildings as ‘properties’ or ‘investments’. This was the sad thing about the frenzy that people got caught up in. People talked about how much their ‘property’ increased daily.It wasn’t just Ireland, it was just the same everywhere the ghastly disease of Reagonomics had destroyed any belief in communality and as Thatcher tried to claim “There was no such thing as society”
    It was the fear of missing out on the party and the desperate scramble to get onto the housing ladder at any price
    The problem with this was that not only was it unsustainable but when the bubble burst ,everyone would be affected by the fall out, even those who had never bought into the dream.
    It can be a personal thing too,being a landlord is not necessarily everyone’s cup of tea. I suppose that affects my attitude to such a situation.

    Comment by jaygee
    16.
    January 19, 2012
    11:03 pm

    No Edel, some of us actually resisted the temptation of cheap and easy credit on the basis that if I borrow x then I am responsible for paying it back. Investment is risky, this is the basis of capitalism-those who are prepared to gamble may be rewarded-or may lose. Common sense dictates that you only gamble what you can afford to lose. There is a concerted effort in your column to construct some sort of grasshopper and ant parallel to investors and the majority of people who didnt borrow recklessly to buy more houses than they could live in. Whats wrong with selling one house to buy another? Investors, unlike the Grasshopper, are not starving to death whilst the rest of us hard-hearted ants lecture them about the virtue of forward planning. They are just being unrealistic about the lifestyle they cannot afford anymore ie owning two or more houses.
    Are we supposed to feel sorry for her because the artificially inflated rental market is slowly returning to more realistic levels. You rightly say they were not necessarily wealthy, they just leveraged-who on earth invests in something as expensive as property if they dont consider themselves wealthy? Are we to have sympathy for the foolishness that saw debt as a form of wealth whilst bemoaning rent allowance cuts at the same time? The same rent allowance that artificially creates a fixed price market for social welfare tenants at the state’s expense.
    Why doesn’t your friend explore selling both properties and renting like everyone else who cant afford to own property? Why isnt her husband looking for a weekend job too? These sympathy for the hard-pressed debt monkeys articles are really just a prelude to calls for debt -forgiveness for investors. Ireland cannot afford to prop up amateur property investors who dont have the sense to do the numbers before spending on the biggest purchase a person can make. Would your friend have been willing to share the profits during the good times?

    Of course I have some sympathy for any family struggling with debt but my sympathy doesnt extend to sacrificing more public services for individuals who gambled and lost.

    Comment by greentea
    17.
    January 20, 2012
    12:09 am

    People need somewhere to live if they don’t own their own homes. Landlords provide a service. It is either profitable for them to do so or not. Right now it is not. Lots of landlords made mistakes. Easy for those on the sidelines to say so now. Bakers bake bread, doctors cure people. They all get paid for their work. Why not landlords ?? I don’t see how someone with multiple rental properties is more or less deserving than any other business owner. Some commentators here need to grow up. Individual landlords or investors didn’t cause the bubble or the crash. Government policy, improper regulation and an electorate demanding higher incomes and lower taxes created this mess.

    However, it is clear that the vast majority of investors will steer clear of property for the next few years. Tenants in the major city centres will face higher rents. Government actions recently have been knee jerk and imprudent and will result in a shortage of suitable property for letting once the economy recovers and immigration from Europe recommences (most of the vacant NAMA property is in places where people would rather not live). Believe it or not there is not an oversupply of rental property in Dublin and Cork city centres and rents are rising again.

    As an experienced investor with all my properties fully let at good rents I can say that the only impediment to prices rising is the lack of bank credit. I and others I know would like to buy more properties especially at current prices but lack of finance makes it impossible. Threshold will soon be complaining about rising rents and profiteering by landlords when in fact prices will simply be set by the laws of supply and demand.

    This debate needs some consideration and maturity.

    Comment by dkok
    18.
    January 20, 2012
    2:33 am

    Agreed, but telling people with a different opinion from your own to ‘grow up’ is not ‘mature’.
    neither is it safe to assume people are ‘on the sidelines’ re this issue, don’t know why you assume this.
    boo-hooing aside, nobody wants to see lives ruined over bad investments whatever their feelings on property speculation.

    As for the baker, candlestick maker etc. yes they all get paid. but the specific category of buyer discussed in the article is one whose main income was not derived from being a landlord, and so not the same thing.

    Comment by jules
    19.
    January 20, 2012
    9:01 am

    Here’s a delicious irony folks. Just heard on the News that Cameron and Co. have just sold 9% of Thames Water (biggest water and sewage co. in UK) to the Chinese Government !

    Comment by jaygee
    20.
    January 20, 2012
    9:15 am

    I’M AN UNWILLING LANDLORD. My then girlfriend and I bought one bed apartment in 2004, got married in 2007 and she got pregnant. We bought a 3-bed semi-detached off plans in 2007 and whilst waiting for it to be built stayed in our apartment. Fast forward two years and the developer still hadn’t finished our house during which time the arse fell out of the market and we found ourselves in serious negative equity on our apartment and so bank wouldn’t let us sell as was the original plan. The developer eventually completed the house in 2010 (2 years later than told) and sought to close the sale of the house, based on 2007 contract price.
    Thankfully, we managed to purchase the house at current market values prevailing at the date of closing owing to his delay in completing the house. Nevertheless, we’re left with the one bed apartment because the bank wouldn’t let us sell (in negitive equity) and so are now landlords.

    The point is…there are landlords out there who became landlords out of necessity rather than greed and who aren’t in it to screw every tenant for money. In the meantime, I’m paying NPPR, household charge and service charge on an apartment I don’t even want so roll up all you smug smart asses who delight in now telling people that they didn’t fall into the “trap” but rather rented when the reality is that, in the vast majority of cases, the banks wouldn’t loan them enough to buy a property!

    Comment by Trevor
    21.
    January 20, 2012
    11:56 am

    “I and others I know would like to buy more properties especially at current prices but lack of finance makes it impossible.”

    Jeepers, my heart bleeds for you. There plenty more that would like to buy a house merely to live in but sure what’s that in comparison to your predicament.

    Comment by Darragh
    22.
    January 20, 2012
    12:39 pm

    And what about all the landlords who were initially living in the house they had purchased only to have to emigrate and rent out their house…I didn’t ask for that.

    Comment by Paul
    23.
    January 20, 2012
    1:08 pm

    I have just two little Latin words that sum all of this up…”Caveat Emptor” – end of chat. We are all grown adults who should have the maturity and common sense to make prudent financial decisions, given that if we get it wrong out lives can be utterly ruined.

    Comment by ROBIN
    24.
    January 20, 2012
    1:14 pm

    Trevor (accidental landlord) I doubt whether any of the negative comments about landlords is directed at you or people who found themselves in a similar situation.

    Edel, good subject for a lively debate.

    Comment by jaygee
    25.
    January 20, 2012
    1:56 pm

    I have exactly the same amount of sympathy for them as those who lost money on their other investment types. Bad luck really, but what can you do, all investments carry risk. I don’t particularly care about the in’s and out’s of why a property investment came about, or why it has failed, any more than I want to hear about someone’s portfolio of stocks.

    Why is property investment considered special? Its effectively a business you run on the side, on credit. You make a profit or you dont… end of story. Should we cry for everyone who took a risk and lost at business?

    Comment by Karlos
    26.
    January 20, 2012
    2:30 pm

    Jules, Accepted ‘use of grow up’ perhaps inappropriate but anybody buying shares or property to let (or even to live in) needs to have their wits about them. These are the most important financial decisions. The point about ‘growing up’ is still valid. Property is a big compllicated long term investment but most property investors were buying houses as if they were buying a holiday. And a lot of the comment in the media over the past couple of years is just noise and emotion. It doesn’t help anyone.

    Comment by dkok
    27.
    January 20, 2012
    5:05 pm

    Paul – the article isnt about people in your position or those who needed to trade up but werent in a position to sell their first property or other scenarios like that. its about people who intentionaly ‘took a punt’ on two, three or more properties to let, at a profit. contributing to the bubble and helping to price people out of the market.

    but yknow they were doing it for their kids which somehow means you have to feel sorry for them or whatever.

    Comment by J Ennis
    28.
    January 20, 2012
    10:37 pm

    A pension is an investment. How do people think their pension grows sufficently to allow them to retire? People criticise property investors in Ireland because they see it as conspicuous consumption- “Sure isn’t one house enough for ya” “Getting a bit above your station there, boyo”. A lot of people invested part of their pension in property. They also invested in bank shares. They also invested in gilts, T-bonds and ETFs etc. That is how your pension grows. Of course, there are different types of investments and different levels of risk. Property and bank shares were viewed as Blue Chip. They weren’t. I dont think buying bank shares and property, in moderation, were viewed as a particularly risky investments- though no one is claiming it was risk-free. People have lost huge sums on these. I have sympathy for them. It’s a difficult situation. It is pure ignorance to equate all property investors as the same. People who do that are the people who do not know how a pension works. They are the same idiots who think they will be able to rely on the State Pension when they want to retire. If there one thing we can be sure of- there wont be anything in the State coffers for the Old Age Pension pretty soon, so I’d suggest people start investing in something. If you don’t, I certianly wont have any sympathy for you!

    Comment by Sancho
    29.
    January 21, 2012
    11:16 am

    They bet, and they lost. Simple as that. Losing gamblers do not deserve an ounce of sympathy. Winning gamblers do not deserve an ounce of praise.

    Comment by Ray
    30.
    January 21, 2012
    4:20 pm

    I bought a house in 2006 in mayo.. in my home town.. and months later I bought a house in dublin, I currently owe 470k to the bank, I make 40k per annum in my job – I’ll never make a penny more. there are thousands of empty houses in Mayo. I have had to drop the rent by 400euro just to get some tenents into it, i work in dublin. I never have any money, and have not been out for over a year and because of the dead end Im in, I have lately contemplated suicide. I know that I’ll be dead before the houses are remotely close to been paid off anyway. I would be better off to just walk out onto the street and not bother to work or recognise my responsibilities. I find this article is pretty accurate to what a huge number of people must going though. People are in real trouble. I rented for 17 years before I bought my house. yes in the hope of making a profit and having some sort of Life, but these hopes are dead and gone. and when I say profet, Im talking a few thousand thats all, But now If my tenents run into any problems – I have to travel to Mayo to help them – a new washing machine or a problem with anything ruins me financially for months.. the days of the nasty landlord are gone.. thats a generalisation. The comments that ‘this landlord was a prev’ etc.. pathetic remarks.. all personal.. maybe rusty bucket is just a prude… over all I could not be more bitter with the state itself. I have had a banker say to me over the phone ‘I’ll not only take the shirt off your back, i’ll take the skin as well’. If my mortgage was held in relation to the equity of the house then that would be an intelligent way to rate how much is needed to be paid.. but alas no. A friend said to me that he think’s that in time, landlords are going to say to people ‘get out’ I have someone who will pay more.. I need that horrible thought to become the reality.

    Comment by penny less
    31.
    January 21, 2012
    4:28 pm

    They bet on the property/rental/jobs market, and they lost. Simple as that.
    Losing gamblers deserve no sympathy. Winning gamblers deserve no praise.

    Comment by Ray
    32.
    January 21, 2012
    4:35 pm

    Sancho – are you seriously equating taking out a pension with buying a 2nd property? You don’t BORROW money to take out a pension!! You don’t take on massive debts that will take decades to pay off and call that a pension! That was the idiocy of people’s behaviour…

    Comment by Ray
    33.
    January 22, 2012
    12:32 pm

    As many have said, it was all the ‘me-too’ landlords who collectively bid up prices & increased the costs of a home, whether rented or bought for everybody. Now the market has crashed & caused recession, falling wages, job insecurity, unemployment & much tightened deposit requirements means many people are still unable to afford a home of their own. I think Edel & the me-too landlords should take a little moral reflection on the fact that property is not some optional frippery, but homes where people live & raise their families – and everybody needs one.

    But even in Edel’s own terms, her argument for sympathy for those who merely held on to their previous property when buying another does not really hold water. Where the motivation is solely to move up to a better or larger house, the typical owner would have owned their original property some years at least, 5 or more likely 10. In which case the first property would have been bought at a much lower price than in the peak of the boom. In which case, the rent income from the first property almost certainly continues to cover any outstanding mortgage costs. What such people are more likely whinging about is the high mortgage costs & negative equity of the house they bought nearer the peak, which they live in themselves. So long as they still have their job, all they are short is the profits they would have made from a rip off inflated rent, had the boom (rediculously) continued. Long term, they will still own two properties. (Whereas the people renting still have no chance of owning.) If they lose their job, well, they’re in trouble, welcome to the other half of Irish society who got nothing from the boom but the higher cost of a home.

    All that said, we should not forget the people who have really escaped scott free for their culpability. The banksters, regulators & politicians who facilitated & encouraged the whole thing – many of whom were also on the bandwagon, but at the ’smarter’ upper end of the pyramid & made sure they’d cashed out or were otherwise ok when the inevitable crash came. Sadly, & inexplicably, we’re still letting these greedy scammers run things.

    Comment by Mike Hall
    34.
    January 22, 2012
    1:34 pm

    Penny less, get some debt advice and get some counselling. Try to keep this in perspective. The key thing is that hopefully you can service the interest on your loans. Face up to the bank. I know people who owe millions and it doesn’t bother them personally. As for people investing in pensions. What a scam that is. Pension managers are not experts in the markets. They are participants. They take 2% of your money whether they make gains or not. That adds up to 40% of your final fund value after 40 years. The government gives tax relief to investors but the beneficiaries are the pension funds. I used to work in investment banking. The financial services industry serves itself first. The punters are a very poor second. I have no money in pension funds. I do a much better job myself. Most people could do likewise.

    Comment by dkok
    35.
    January 22, 2012
    6:21 pm

    Agree with the article. There’s an old Irish attitude that the begrudges landlords. We’re seeing some of it in these comments.

    Comment by Colm
    36.
    January 22, 2012
    11:42 pm

    In the last decade I calculate that I spent 50k on rent. Mean? You bet. Greedy? Absolutely. An iota of sympathy? Not a whit. Most of those people wanted money for doing nothing. Renting property was the ultimate get rich quick at somebody else’s expense game, and the current issue over rent allowance says far more about how willing landlords are to push rents to unsustainable levels in search of profit than it does about anything else.

    Comment by Laura
    37.
    January 23, 2012
    12:03 am

    Derfinns story relates much more to the reality that the OPs fantasy world. When not listening to the boasting and bragging from speculator colleagues I do remember one friend who really thought she’d never be able afford anything going to try to buy complete dives. The very worst had one thing in common: they were all rented out and the tenant still in situ, except for one who’d absconded. They were all horrendous and in all cases the price went up by 10% pricing my friend out. In the end she bought one that the last evicted tenant had wrecked and it turned out that the heating was incorrectly wired! FTBs were completely brushed aside by the investors during the boom and those investors have some neck now with their sob stories.

    Comment by Laura
    38.
    January 23, 2012
    1:34 pm

    Don’t gamble what you can’t afford to lose. Simples.

    Comment by Susan
    39.
    January 24, 2012
    4:46 am

    I say boo hoo too.

    If they can’t make the repayments, they should sell the property.
    If they have negative equity on the sale, they should sell other assets to make up the difference.
    If that sends them broke, then they should declare bankruptcy.

    Comment by Lorcan
    40.
    January 24, 2012
    7:22 pm

    I’ve certainly experienced horrible landlords, and got out of there as quick as possible. I’m also aware of the ‘unwilling’ or unintended landlords, and while I sympathise that its tough, that’s the risk they took and they have to play the hand they were dealt.

    In 2007 just as we were approaching the top of the market, a colleague of mine was saying when he and his wife went to buy an apartment a few years earlier. The agent had suggested they buy two – told them how they’d make a killing on the rent and even gave tips how to apply for both loans simultaneously the bank would never know about the other loan. The conversation in 2007 went along the lines it was too dodgy to touch, but he was still fanatising about the what value of the property, and the rental income, would have been at that point in time.

    In more recent years the story of the offer of two apartments has been told again, but now with the view of it being a close shave (unless they had the cop on to sell the rental in 2007, at which point the fantasy starts again)

    The point is, sometimes reflecting on a decision at different points in time really changes the attitude entirely. Maybe another 5 years from now, some of unwilling / unintended landlords will be talking about those few tough years, but it was the best decision ever made (probably more likely winning lotto, but you never know)

    But I am disappointed that so many people are taking a ’serves them right’ attitude to all landlords because of stereotypes. Some people were greedy, some people made bad decisions, some people just plain had bad luck. Unfortunately taxes have to be raised, and there are far more vulnerable people out there than landlords that may hopefully be spared a different type of tax hit.

    As for penny less. My heart truly does bleed for you – and that is beyond bad luck. But there must be people you can talk to about options with your debt. You also might want to look around you and ask for help – are there people in Mayo who can save you the drive for solving minor problems with the house there? Someone who might do a bit of DIY as a favour? People usually are willing to help out as long as you don’t take advantage, but if you don’t ask, they might think you’re too proud to take the help. I hope you get a good break soon.

    Comment by Sally
    41.
    January 24, 2012
    10:48 pm

    as you say there are far more vulnerable people out there than landlords and matters have been made worse for them by buy to let landlords directly or indirectly. I think this is the point. the IT needs to think about what stories it chooses to tell.
    this article is disingenuous. of course people sympathise with individuals in dire straits, but the broader picture is ignored- that buy to let was a bad idea for society all along. ok I go back to russia now.

    Comment by funkytown
    42.
    January 25, 2012
    10:35 am

    There’s going to be more unwilling landlords like Trevor I reckon, myself included, as if we are lucky enough to be able to move house (because of expanding family), we will probably have to do it while keeping old house as it won’t sell.

    Comment by Ann
    43.
    January 26, 2012
    8:25 am

    Living in France for the best part of 20 years I’ve been watching the property situation in Ireland for years. Aside from the stereotypical landlands etc, the real problem in Ireland was a lack of proper legislation and accountability. The banking legislation in France is strict; you can spend no more than 30% of your income on a mortgage. There’s no negotiation, this is the reality. This means that people couldn’t decide to buy another house whilst still having their first house/mortgage (bridging loans are extremely rare here too). That plus the expensive legal fees means that most people in France do not sell untl they have their first property for 8 years in order to fully absorb the costs. Such a shame that countless Irish goverrnments hadn’t got the wherewithal to listen to advice given by OECD to cool down the property market when they could have. Whilst I feel sympathy for those in negative equity and debt (some of my family members are in that situation); it seems that in Ireland there was some sort of frenzy and all common sense went out the window. Irish banks seemed to be completely different from when I lived there in the 80’s where it was virtually impossible to open a current account. Luckily in France the legislation and government prevents people from being their own worst enemies and getting into unnecessary debt. It would be interesting to see whether banking legislation finally gets changed in Ireland – and those who were involved in this mess finally held accountable.

    Comment by Carorueil
    44.
    January 26, 2012
    9:22 am

    Grow up and act your age!.People who bought property made adult decisions to borrow money.Live with it. If my children moaned the way adults do when life intervenes I would be hugely disappointed.Get on with it , you are not going to live forever. And yes I got my fingers burned too!

    Comment by gerry
    45.
    January 26, 2012
    10:10 am

    I understand that there are unwilling landlords out there but as someone who has been renting for 10 years I take the tennants view. While I appreciate that some landlords are unwilling, that doesnt mean that the tennants should pay over the odds or have to do with substandard accomodation becuase the landlord cannot afford to put money back into the property. While part of me has sympathy over the property taxes the other part of me is just thinking- well boo hoo. renters have had to take pay cuts too! We have to pay increased vat, heath insurance, petrol costs higher utilities etc also! Renters feel the pressure too! And like an earlier commenter said- we miss a months rent and we are out! becuase WE are paying someone elses mortgage!

    And Edel, I dont know if people who kept onto their old property in 2005 when moving up can be called unwilling landlords. While things may have hit the fan for them now, they still made the decision to keep and rent out the property in the first place. Naive landlords may be a better way to describe them but I do think that there was a factor of greed in thier decision!

    Oh yeah- I worked in mortgages in 2006/2007 so i saw first hand the attitude. I didnt work in sales- just services- but i routed a lot of calls to mortageg sales- especially top-ups. the banks were giving them out goodo but there was demand!

    Comment by Catherine
    46.
    January 26, 2012
    11:25 am

    BOO HOO is the perfect reply. Sorry but you had it coming.

    Comment by Jim
    47.
    January 26, 2012
    11:27 am

    They bet, and they lost. Simple as that. Losing gamblers do not deserve an ounce of sympathy. Winning gamblers do not deserve an ounce of praise.

    THIS 1 MILLION + TIMES.

    Comment by Jim
    48.
    January 26, 2012
    12:41 pm

    so many out there that cannot relate to what is happening to landlords….that’s because they have not walked in our shoes. my rental property is in negative equity of about 150k, my rent is down 450per month since 2008. i contribute about 400 per month to my buy to let mortgage out of my salary. am just about able to pay the mortgage at the moment just about keeping my head above water. i did budget for bubble bursting, interest rate increases, worst case scenario etc…but NEVER did anyone think it would ever get this bad. i’m not sure how much austerity i can take…dread the next budget…

    remember….landlords are just another easy target for the government to squeeze …

    Comment by Daniel
    49.
    January 26, 2012
    6:57 pm

    Reading the likes of this (much as swallowing the PRediCtions of real estate agents same as stockbrokers bankers politicians in fact any Irish veste interest come to think of it requires more salt than your county councils run out of each winter) doesn’t exactly cause me a quiver of ’sympathy’ (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1202/breaking38.html)
    So, given I’m robbed by the Satraps to pay the gambling debts of Ireland’s Elites; and I’m presently to be robbed again to pay the gambling debts of every dog an divil who got into shtuck borrowing 10 and 20X their income (and that’s including all the lies they told on their application form regarding non-existent overtime and bonuses and so on and so forth) and tho’ I never got sucked up in the madness (‘cos inter alia I knew that if the Irish could nod and wink at their country being made party to illegal war and torture they could nod and wink at anything and as we see they did) it’s a bit rich now to ask me to feel ’sympathy’ for landlords who will presently be reaping the rewards of owning rental property in a morally, financially, karmically, bankrupt country where Bill Gates probably couldn’t get a mortgage.
    Not that I think for a nano-second a smart man like Mr Gates would ever want to come live in this dump.

    Comment by JO@D
    50.
    February 7, 2012
    9:23 pm

    And nobody mentioned the auctioneers who gaily fanned the rising flames which burned nearly everyone.

    Comment by Conor
    51.
    February 11, 2012
    3:15 pm

    i FIND IT ABSOLUTELY AMAZING THAT SO MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH THE “BOO HOO” COMMENT. I FIND IT VERY DEPRESSING THAT THE IRISH PEOPLE STILL HAVE NOT COPPED ON TO THE BIGGER PICTURE I.E. WE ARE BEING MADE TO PAY FOR GAMBLING LOSSES THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PAID BY THE ENTITIES RESPONSIBLE I.E. GERMAN & FRENCH BANKS.THEY WERE ALLOWED TO FLOOD IRELAND WITH BUCKETS OF CASH FOR PROFIT AND WERE NOT REIGNED IN BY THE ECB. THE ECB THEN BULLY OUR WEAK/UNDER QUALIFIED/COULDN’T CARE LESS POLITIICIANS/CIVIL SERVANTS TO COVER/SOCIALISE THOSE PRIVATE DEBTS.THE PRO-BOO-HOOISTS NEED TO TAKE OFF THEIR BLINKERS AND GET DOWN OFF THEIR HIGH HORSES AND FOCUS ON WHO THE REAL ENEMY IS HERE I.E.OUR PATHETIC POLITICAL CLASS,TRADE UNIONS/CROKE PARK AGREEMENT AND THE THE TROIKA.THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO WILL FORCE YOUR CHILDREN TO EMIGRATE AND NOT THE LANDLORDS WHO AT LEAST CREATED SOME EMPLOYMENT AND GENERATED TAX INCOME AND PROVIDED SHELTER FOR PEOPLE ALBEIT AT A COST.THESE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WILL CHIP AWAY AT YOUR STANDARD OF LIVING OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS.

    I CAN’T HELP THINKING THAT THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF “THANK GOD THERE WAS A PROPERTY CRASH BECAUSE I THOUGHT I HAD MISSED THE BOAT” AMONG THE PRO BOO-HOO-ISTS.TAKE A STEP BACK AND WAKE UP TO WHO THE REAL ENEMY IS FOR YOUR OWN SAKE.

    Comment by PADDY B
    52.
    February 12, 2012
    6:17 pm

    I’m a Landlord by default, from an inheritance, and I bought my own first home at the peak of the market ( I am now unemployed with a massive amount of debt and no prospects of paying it back anytime soon!), I would like to point out that no one here appears to be looking at the realistic side of this.
    Landlords need some slack, we need landlords,
    There are many people who need rental accommodation for various reasons at various stages in their lives; ie students, temporary work, first homes whilst saving etc. With out a proportionate number of rental properties rents will rise and then push people into buying, and then realising a high demand and low supply, we run the risk of yet an other boom and bust cycle.

    If Landlords don’t some reprieve soon, many may just hand the keys back and walk away! this has the potential to cause even greater levels of poverty to those already struggling tenants, many who also have the luxury of not paying for services, or the upkeep of the property as it is! Its simply not feasible to continue to penalise the landlord.. for the sake of the entire country!

    Comment by Catherine C

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