Hello anonymous commenter! I’m not in the business of defending or lambasting businesses for their ethics, only because I don’t understand enough about it – but I will say that cost is not the deciding factor in whether or not a store or designer uses child labour, and that I don’t necessarily think banning child labour outright would be a positive move for anyone involved. While I would love to see a utopian paradise where we all get paid minimum wage, I don’t think anyone would argue that as an achievable goal on a worldwide scale.

That anonymous commenter is right, though. Penneys is that cheap because Primark consistently flouts labour laws. The Ethical Trade Initiative means nothing to Primark. They have been shown to operate sweat shop factories, and use child labour in Asia and illegal immigrant labour in the UK.

Saying “I don’t understand enough about it” is merely citing ignorance as a reason to ignore these facts.

I get really annoyed when Penney’s is promoted as some great affordable fashion messiah when its stock comes at such huge cost.

I don’t think paying people a working wage is “utopian”, it’s merely fair and there are hundreds of organisations working towards achieving that. The least us consumers can do is support that.

To be honest, there are hundreds of companies flouting labour laws internationally, both cheap and prohibitively expensive companies. Penneys is hugely popular in Ireland, and I’m not going to ignore it – this is a blog looking at fashion in Ireland, and I think to do so would be doing people a disservice. If people want to organise a Penneys boycott, they should do so – if people stop shopping there, I’ll stop talking about it.

(As an aside, I’d love to know the full story about Penneys and labour: drop me an email rmaccabe [at] irishtimes.com with the info and hopefully I’ll be less ignorant in the future.)

…and you really think that Pennys are the only retailer to use these factories and pay these prices…. look a little closer at the other high street retailers and even at the the higher end… don’t be fooled.

Penny’s have, at least, signed up to the Ethical Trading Initiative which involves working with NGOs on the ground in these countires which is more than can be said for the vast majority of the other high street retailers. Penny’s are not perfect but they are making an effort.

I think if you’re buying goods then you should know where they come from. I know plenty of people don’t do that, that’s just my approach, which obviously narrows down one’s choices and of course everyone slips up (I bought jeans in TopShop recently, even though Arcadia’s ethical record is totally crap.)

And if fashion is your thing bigger than just on a general consumer basis, I think it’s even more important to educate yourself on where products come from.

I think if you’re promoting clothes or flagging them as upcoming or whatever, maybe there could be a disclaimer or something? ‘This fashion may be made in an unethical or illegal manner’?

Don’t really have time to send a lengthy email RE: the history of Primark and labour, but you could start with simply Googling it and reading related news items. Check out the 2009 BBC and Observer investigation into work and employment practices in their UK factories, the 2008 Panorama on Primark’s sweat shops is also worth a look (here’s a bit of that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xtJNsJhJWY), there’s loads of information readily available.

Labour Behind The Label is running a campaign called the Asia Floor Wage which is pushing for a minimum living wage to be applied to all garment workers manufacturing goods for Arcadia, Next and Primark.

Here’s a video of Bangladeshi garment workers talking about Primark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgJh79xFzxU

I think it comes down to really basic stuff though, as much as people choose to ignore it, it simply isn’t fair that the clothes people wear in Ireland or wherever come at a human cost elsewhere. The power lies with the consumer and we do have the power to change that, no matter how unrealistic anyone decides that may seem.

I am no Utopian, but a fair wage for fair work is just humanitarian. This is why I read the label on every garment I buy, be it Hobbs, French Connection, Vivienne Westwood or Dunnes Stores.
What would the children do if we took away the sweatshops they are sometimes literally locked into for 16 hours at a time. Well, perhaps they might get an education or even better a childhood. But nevermind, they are non-nationals anyway (isn’t that the euphemism?) as long as our little darlings are all osh kosh begoshed…

I guess it is like anything else, we are personally responsible for our social education and the choices we make in the shops, be it food, clothes or anything else.
If all we can do is not buy the produce of the oppressed, it is something at least.
It is worth thinking about, and talking about.
Little acts all add up.
At least the model does look like she was fed recently ;o)

Jesus didn’t just weep he sent flowers!

Is that really what you think, that the politics of consumption are removed from the politics of production.

I am speechless, and shall remain so.

They are removed. It’s a western conceit that politics occurs at the point of consumption. Don’t you find it interesting that as we have abandoned production we have also seen the greatest downturn in the history of organised labour? No-one ever won better conditions through shopping – or not shopping. Boycotts didn’t bring down the government of South Africa, they kept on selling diamonds, fruit and armaments. Likewise, boycott Israeli oranges all you want, they’ll keep on selling guns.

Some companies count on us being ignorant of where our clothes come from – that’s why sweatshops and child labour didn’t become the focus of documentaries and articles, and then ethical groups and legislation until the past few years.
The more we stay ignorant, the less they have to change. So it’s our job to find out about where our clothes come from.
Sadly, the alternatives to buying at Penneys or similar stores if you don’t have a lot of money aren’t plentiful in Ireland. But it’s no excuse not to buy in other places – and it’s even more reason to contact Penneys et al and tell them what we think, as consumers.
Also, regarding this point: “I think most fashion is produced in some manner that could be considered unethical (be it anti-feminist, sexist, paying workers unfairly. . .)” – fashion doesn’t need to be any of these things, but at the very least those writing about fashion can talk about these issues and discuss them like we’re doing here. Opening debate helps to bring about change.
Knowledge is, as they say, power. And it’s the consumers who hold the most power here – we’re the ones who choose to give our money to these companies or not.

@Una Mullally

So what is the strategy, then? Ignoring the stages of economic development won’t change anything. Most of these countries are still in a state of primitive accumulation. As they privatise the means of production they follow us into the more readily workable stage of development dependent on the exploitation of the nominally free labor of others, whereupon industrial action becomes a reality.

@roxette hope the amount going on in your life isn’t as bad as working in a sweatshop! Jus sayin.

@Jason the strategy is pretty simple: Campaigning for a fair wage for garmet workers across Asia and beyond, and using consumer power to twist the arms of companies into doing so.

“I am all for positive moves to improve the quality of life in these countries, but development comes at a price and we wouldn’t go back in time and erase child labour used in the industrial revolution; it would be an entirely regressive step.”
Are you saying there would have been no Industrial Revolution without child labour? Thats not something that I’ve seen written about in the history books I’ve studied.
Perhaps you could do a bit of research on Primark and child labour for your next fashion blog? Bound to generate some interest!

I wonder how many of these people commenting actually check out where all of the clothes that they buy are sourced from, and whether they themselves actually boycott Penneys. You can probably be sure that if they were stuck for something for a saturday night out & they knew that Penneys had it that they would snap it up in a hurry.
I agree that people should be educated in where their clothes, food etc come from and it’s great to open up the discussion here, but some people are adopting a holier-than-thou attitude. Una – a music blogger – do you download music? Have you ever done? While it’s not supporting child labour, it’s certainly doing people out of job somewhere.
As someone else pointed out, Penneys is a major employer in this country, by all means let them know your disgust at their child labour history, it seems with it coming to light in articles more recently that they know they can’t get away wtih it & with them signing up to the ETI at least it’s a step in the right direction.

We’ll all be giving out once they start putting their prices, and not quality, upwards.

I’m all for healthy debate and raising issues. But it’s also fair that as a fashion blog you should be allowed to show recent fashions and trends, especially one that’s affordable. It’s up to people individually to know where the clothes come from and it’s up to them whether they wish to support that or not.

@Lauren, I did read that piece, I meant more information as in statistics, figures, facts etc.

@Catherine, I agree with you re Penneys and steps.

@sweetoblivion, I take your point about openness and debate, and it is a valid one. However, I go through lookbooks quite frequently and often without discussing ethical issues to do with companies (for example, American Apparel and misogyny or at the very least blatant sexism), merely because all I’m doing is looking at the fashion side of things. Derek Scally did a great piece about Primark, Germany and ethics a few weeks ago, linked to by Lauren @27, and I guess my point was that I don’t have the scope to do that kind of feature here.

As far as the remit of this blog goes, it’s about fashion. What’s available, what people are interested in, what’s out there. If people want to email me rmaccabe [at] irishtimes.com and voice their objections to my ever posting about Penneys again, I’ll definitely take it into consideration but, as I said, people shop there – we’re all entitled to make decisions, informed or not, the last time I checked, and as far as judgment goes, that might be other people’s remits, but I’d rather not let it be mine.

This post has gone way off-topic, and I’m not responding to any more allegations of my being pro child-labour (which I’m not) or ignorant (ditto). I was writing about fashion, and I will continue to do so.

This is a comment for Una. I’ve been a reader of Rosemary’s blogs for quite a while now and I have noticed a consistent negativity from you, in particular, towards her postings. Anytime you leave a comment you are negative towards her, what’s up with that? How come you never comment or contribute in any other way?

@ Una: 5. I know Penneys is a major employer, but just because they provide people with jobs doesn’t mean that their bad practices should be ignored. I don’t see the logic in that.

By that logic, you noting that American Apparel employees get $500 per week has nothing to do wtih the discussion either.
I also don’t think their bad practices should be ignored, but i think you’re ignoring the issue of the country being in a financial quandry so the chances of Penney’s being boycotted anytime soon are fairly slim. Immoral maybe, but fairly realistic.

My apologies for reverting back to your music blogging days, i just felt that while not as serious an issue it is quite a valid point that an area you have historically shown an interest in (music) has it’s own moral issues which some also choose to ignore. Yet, if it was an album you wanted bad enough and not within your pricerang but it was readily available for you to download for free, i’m sure you would.
Same that many people can only afford to shop at Penneys.
I’m not condoning their past in relation to child labour, but it IS something they have addressed recently and surely it’s encouraging that it’s going a step in the right direction. Boycotting a large employer is hardly going to sock it to the man. FYI i rarely buy anything in there myself.

I don’t think people are reluctant to talk about it, hell it’s been in every publication recently from rag to broadsheet. I think it’s more a case of people not knowing enough about it to talk about.
A few posts back on this very blog was a post about fur, and yet it didn’t get as big a reaction as this, why? Is killing animals more acceptable than children in sweatshops? Or is it because people are tired of talking about fur and want to have a chance to sound knowledgable about soemthing else?

Paysan, it is of interest to me as a human being as much as it is of interest to me as a fashion writer. I plan on doing some research into it, but for the time being, I won’t be writing anything about it here. It has been written about in the newspaper and, I’m sure, will be written about again.

I’m not involved at all with the production of The Gloss, so I would suggest you contact its editorial team with any ideas you have regarding content.

I got halfway through reading the comments about Penneys, but really I just wanted to say ‘I have that dress in black and I wear it with flat shoes’ in a gleeful ‘I finally got fashion right’ kind of way. My glee has mostly been taken over by guilt now.

Belated congrats on the propa’ professional blog though!